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Message
re: 25th anniversary of waco
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:34 am to lsu1919
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:34 am to lsu1919
The stupid thing is the ATF could have picked his arse up anytime. He was around town all the time. The guy that had the idea to attack a well armed militia with ATF agents in Cattle trucks in the middle of the day should be in prison.
0
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:35 am to LSU316
quote:
The facts are that due to missing evidence and the way the case was handled there is no proof that the Branch Davidians started the fire and no proof that the FBI started the fire.
There is absolutely proof that the Branch Davidians started the fire. There were survivors from the fire that testified that gasoline was being poured throughout the compound. Even without the eyewitness testimony, there is 100% certainty that an accellerant was used due to the flame spread and intensity of the fire. These facts are well documented.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:36 am to NIH
quote:bro, do you even WMD?
the useful idiots in this country believe unverified claims of child abuse are reason enough to bring tanks and military tactics to the table.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:51 am to jrodLSUke
quote:
There were survivors from the fire that testified that gasoline was being poured throughout the compound. Even without the eyewitness testimony, there is 100% certainty that an accellerant was used due to the flame spread and intensity of the fire. These facts are well documented.
Would like to see this, every interview I have seen of the survivors said they didn't have plans to burn themselves.
The tapes from the FBI bugs about them talking about spreading gas is the evidence I have always seen.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:52 am to jrodLSUke
quote:
100% certainty that an accellerant was used due to the flame spread and intensity of the fire.
There are also fire experts that have said that the fire could have grown that intense and spread that quickly simply due to the 25+ mph wind in Waco that day and all the holes in the building created by the tanks.
quote:
There were survivors from the fire that testified that gasoline was being poured throughout the compound.
There were also survivors that said that they never had any plans of suicide up until the end and didn't start the fire.....so it goes both ways.
Like I said there is no absolute proof either way.
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 10:53 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:57 am to LSU316
Man I would like to see the full unedited video shot by the ATF.
That edited portion of the roof portion is so strange without a good concept of time.
That edited portion of the roof portion is so strange without a good concept of time.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:58 am to Dam Guide
quote:
talking about spreading gas
So the thing is they never said gas....but basically every survivor did mention that they spread water on blankets to help counteract the CS gas.
Who knows?
Posted on 3/1/18 at 10:59 am to Dam Guide
quote:
Man I would like to see the full unedited video shot by the ATF.
Damn right....I think they had clear video evidence of who shot first that we never saw. If the Davidian's shot first do you think we wouldn't have seen that video????
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:00 am to LSU316
quote:
or that they would commit mass suicide (they themselves have said they had no plans for mass suicide besides would that have been worse than what they actually caused to happen)
Uh...... They did commit mass suicide.........
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:02 am to beerJeep
quote:
They did commit mass suicide.........
Do you know what mass suicide is? It happened in Jonestown, Guyana....I'm sure you've heard about the kool-aid.
Having kids and women in a concrete room being killed by CS gas or fire is not suicide.
ETA
So if the outcome is the same then why not pick him up outside of the compound???...that was the point there.
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 11:04 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:05 am to LSU316
quote:
There were also survivors that said that they never had any plans of suicide
And maybe THEY didn't. But the men, specifically David and his best buddies did.
David and his goonies kept the women and children inside to die. They were a defensive death cult.
Defensive.
Death.
Cult.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:07 am to LSU316
The women and kids COULD have ran out at any mother fricking time.
They could have escaped the second it started or hours into it.
I wonder why they didn't. Don't you 316? Would YOU volunteer to stay inside a house being pumped with gas or would you get the frick out?
No. Of course you wouldn't. They didn't volunteer to stay in that building and die. They were forced to by David.
They could have escaped the second it started or hours into it.
I wonder why they didn't. Don't you 316? Would YOU volunteer to stay inside a house being pumped with gas or would you get the frick out?
No. Of course you wouldn't. They didn't volunteer to stay in that building and die. They were forced to by David.
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 11:09 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:13 am to beerJeep
quote:
Would YOU volunteer to stay inside a house being pumped with gas or would you get the frick out?
If there were people shooting at me with fully automatic machine guns when I walked out...I'd probably take my chances...especially when I didn't know that the gas I'm being sprayed with causes fireballs that can ignite extremely intense and fast spreading fires and is considered lethal to people with weakened respiratory systems (aka old people and children). Also, I didn't know at the time that actually using that gas was a war crime.
quote:
They didn't volunteer to stay in that building and die. They were forced to by David and the US Government.
FIFY
ETA
There is one prevailing thing that I think needs to be known here.....you liberal "government can do no wrong" hacks are every bit as deranged and dangerous as David Koresh was. When people start being OK with the idea that the government can infringe upon US citizens lives by trampling all over the constitution...well that's when I'm out.
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 11:19 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:19 am to LSU316
quote:
If there were people shooting at me with fully automatic machine guns when I walked out...I'd probably take my chances.
weird. All the others who surrendered weren't fired upon while surrendering. quote:
especially when I didn't know that the gas I'm being sprayed with causes fireballs that can ignite extremely intense and fast spreading fires and is considered lethal to people with weakened respiratory systems (aka old people and children).
Good thing for gas masks!
quote:
Also, I didn't know at the time that actually using that gas was a war crime.
Still completely irrelevant. The women and children didn't leave. I wonder why. Could it be because they were forced to stay?
quote:
They didn't volunteer to stay in that building and die. They were forced to by David and the US Government.
Yep. That's why the others who surrendered are still alive today. Because the US govt sentenced them to die.
Jesus frick dude. The raid was horrible. The siege was deplorable. It was a massive frick up all around. It could have been handled in a way that no one fricking died.
But at the end of the day. David and his buddies would not let the women and children leave. They forced them to stay. And then spread shite all over the house to burn the bitch down and go out like they were prophesied to go.
quote:
There is one prevailing thing that I think needs to be known here.....you liberal "government can do no wrong" hacks are every bit as deranged and dangerous as David Koresh was. When people start being OK with the idea that the government can infringe upon US citizens lives by trampling all over the constitution...well that's when I'm out
Ho. Lee. frick. I just got called a liberal for the first time in my life.
I've stated multiple times I don't agree with the raid. It was bullshite. But sure dude. Whatever you say.
David and his buddies killed the women and children. Not the govt. The women and kids COULD have escaped with no harm. But they were forced to stay inside and burn.
The govt didn't force them to stay inside. The david and his men did.
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 11:22 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:25 am to beerJeep
quote:
weird. All the others who surrendered weren't fired upon while surrendering.
Weird...none of them claimed to exit via the cafeteria entrance (the last one consumed by fire)....where they found dead chared bodies whose autopsies stated the cause of death was GSW before the fire.
quote:
Good thing for gas masks!
Which don't fit children.
quote:
Still completely irrelevant.
How the F is it irrelevant that our government will use tactics against its own citizens that it wouldn't use against Saddam Hussein.
quote:
That's why the others who surrendered are still alive today. Because the US govt sentenced them to die.
They tried but a damn jury acquitted all of them of murder and in fact stated that they acted in self defense.
quote:
The raid was horrible. The siege was deplorable. It was a massive frick up all around. It could have been handled in a way that no one fricking died.
All this yet not one government official was held accountable....in fact many of the ATF agents got promotions.
quote:
But at the end of the day. David and his buddies would not let the women and children leave. They forced them to stay. And then spread shite all over the house to burn the bitch down and go out like they were prophesied to go.
This is at best disputed claims and at worst a very uninformed opinion.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:31 am to LSU316
quote:
Weird...none of them claimed to exit via the cafeteria entrance (the last one consumed by fire)....where they found dead chared bodies whose autopsies stated the cause of death was GSW before the fire.
Weird. Are you saying they couldn't surrender before the building caught fire?
quote:
Which don't fit children.
Surrender before the gassing and it's no big deal.
quote:
How the F is it irrelevant that our government will use tactics against its own citizens that it wouldn't use against Saddam Hussein.
Because it has zero to do with David and his goonies forcing the women and children to stay inside to die.
quote:
They tried but a damn jury acquitted all of them of murder and in fact stated that they acted in self defense.
Which is exactly what should have happened. And would have happened to the rest had they frickING SURRENDERED.
quote:
All this yet not one government official was held accountable....in fact many of the ATF agents got promotions.
Which is absolutely bullshite. You do realize that I'm against the raid.... Right?
quote:
This is at best disputed claims and at worst a very uninformed opinion.
Its what occams razor decided.
It is the most logical reason for the women and children staying inside. Because they were FORCED to stay inside.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 11:44 am to beerJeep
quote:
Weird. Are you saying they couldn't surrender before the building caught fire?
Nah I'm saying that it was pretty damn brutal to mow people down when they are trying get out of the fire.
quote:
Which is exactly what should have happened. And would have happened to the rest had they frickING SURRENDERED.
Do you really believe that or have you just convinced yourself of it? I'm not convinced that they wouldn't have executed a lot of decent people like Steve Schneider, Thibodeau, Clive Doyle, etc. I'm not sure those trials turn out the right way if there was no tragedy at the end.
quote:
Surrender before the gassing and it's no big deal.
So you want me to surrender to the people that invaded my land and has already killed several of my friends....sure I killed some of them but it was self defense.
quote:
Its what occams razor decided.
It is the most logical reason for the women and children staying inside. Because they were FORCED to stay inside.
OK now I get it....you are thinking like the FBI agents. They thought that logically if we make these people as uncomfortable as possible they will come out right?
The problem is that they were not logical. They all legitimately believed that Koresh was the 2nd messiah. What makes you think logic comes into play at all here? Gary Noesner knew that the only chance those people had of coming out of that building alive was to be led out by David Koresh.
David Koresh was a damn lunatic fanatic....BUT even a more reasonable man would have seen what they FBI did as overt offensive tactics against him and his people. Would you have went out willingly if you legitimately thought those people outside were going to kill you when you walked out? What about if you thought they were going to take you to jail for simply practicing your Constitutional rights? Again that isn't a logical thought but it is how they thought.
This is why I say that even if David and 2 other people did start the fire the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of 75+ people lie squarely at the feet of the federal government.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 1:39 pm to LSU316
Koresh kept them in there, but the FBI made sure the people kept following Koresh. The HRT teams made it impossible for the negotiators to do their jobs. They flipped flopped about allowing people to come out and did all this torture shite that pretty much assured the people trusted Koresh and that he was completely right with his theories. Then they lied about all the shite they had done and played dumb about knowing what Koresh was planning even though they had heard it from the bugs.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:43 pm to beerJeep
Once again...none of this ever happens if the ATF simply detains/arrests Koresh while he's out for a morning jog or visiting the locals in town.
The ATF wanted to make a spectacle of it and instead it turned into a massacre. The fact that no one in the ATF or FBI were held accountable for what happened is one of the main reasons Timothy McVeigh did what he did in OKC two years later.
The ATF wanted to make a spectacle of it and instead it turned into a massacre. The fact that no one in the ATF or FBI were held accountable for what happened is one of the main reasons Timothy McVeigh did what he did in OKC two years later.
Posted on 3/4/18 at 4:17 pm to LSU316
quote:
So the thing is they never said gas....but basically every survivor did mention that they spread water on blankets to help counteract the CS gas. Who knows?
Decided to do some reading on this since it had been awhile since I read anything about Waco. The whole conversation about this topic that was bugged was discussed between 6-7am, fire didn’t happen til 11-12. Crazy they always leave that part out.
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