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re: How many RB's in the NFL are better (more talented) than Leonard Fournette?
Posted on 2/15/17 at 2:09 pm to GMoney2600
Posted on 2/15/17 at 2:09 pm to GMoney2600
I believe Guice will be a better pro than Fournette. Fournette is more battering ram than savvy runner to me. I think he greatly benefitted from intimidation in college. There were times in his career that you could tell safeties wanted nothing to do with him and kind of pretended to be making an effort. I don't think that'll fly in the pros. Vision is the most glaring weakness I've seen from Fournette. Guice can navigate from one side of a phone booth to the other in 10 steps, Fournette just puts his head down and tries to run through it. Guice runs with a lot of instinct. He isn't thinking when he ball is in his hands, just reacting. Fournette is a dangerous space player because of his size, speed, and attitude. I just don't see the vision he's going to need to be Peterson elite at the next level. He's had holes against Alabama. Gaping holes. They just weren't the hole that the play was designed to be ran through. He's not patient in the backfield. That's a great trait when the hole is open and a terrible trait when it isn't. Devonta Freeman sort of runs the same way, he just has one speed and it's full tilt. He's got a lot of wiggle though that Fournette doesn't possess. Not everyone can be Leveon Bell when it comes to patience and vision, I get that I just think it's more than a deficiency in Fournettes game, it looks like a flat out weakness. Given his athletic ability and tenacious playing style though, he's going to be a homerun hitter. I think he'll have a lot of 50 yard games with some 175 yard games sprinkled in throughout his career. Going to a team with a mediocre offensive line is a death sentence for him imo. He's not a create on my own type of player.
You could even use the gif on the previous page as an example. There is a defender, albeit a small one, waiting in the designed hole. The play side end sets the edge to prevent an outside run and there's a safety over the top to clean up a bounce outside or a missed tackle by Humphrey. Look at the backside of the play. The center gets mauled, but the guard is unimpeded to the second level and gets to the linebacker and the tackle gets movement as well. The backside end gets sealed inside and there's just green grass over there. Not much push from that side of the defensive line and everyone is flowing playside. Textbook example of a play with cutback opportunity but instead he puts his head down and tries to barrel over a defender.
You could even use the gif on the previous page as an example. There is a defender, albeit a small one, waiting in the designed hole. The play side end sets the edge to prevent an outside run and there's a safety over the top to clean up a bounce outside or a missed tackle by Humphrey. Look at the backside of the play. The center gets mauled, but the guard is unimpeded to the second level and gets to the linebacker and the tackle gets movement as well. The backside end gets sealed inside and there's just green grass over there. Not much push from that side of the defensive line and everyone is flowing playside. Textbook example of a play with cutback opportunity but instead he puts his head down and tries to barrel over a defender.
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 2:35 pm
2
Posted on 2/15/17 at 2:39 pm to Rohan Gravy
it's hard to know for sure. I think he will be successful but everyone thought Trent Richardson was one of the surest great RB picks in draft history. He was the next AP before LF7. Fournette has some of the same characteristics that plagued Trent, but LF7 has his off the field stuff in better order it seems.
It's hard to know for sure but I wouldn't take any tailback in the first round, ever, if I were a GM.
It's hard to know for sure but I wouldn't take any tailback in the first round, ever, if I were a GM.
Posted on 2/15/17 at 2:40 pm to Riseupfromtherubble
quote:
I believe Guice will be a better pro than Fournette. Fournette is more battering ram than savvy runner to me. I think he greatly benefitted from intimidation in college. There were times in his career that you could tell safeties wanted nothing to do with him and kind of pretended to be making an effort. I don't think that'll fly in the pros. Vision is the most glaring weakness I've seen from Fournette. Guice can navigate from one side of a phone booth to the other in 10 steps, Fournette just puts his head down and tries to run through it. Guice runs with a lot of instinct. He isn't thinking when he ball is in his hands, just reacting. Fournette is a dangerous space player because of his size, speed, and attitude. I just don't see the vision he's going to need to be Peterson elite at the next level. He's had holes against Alabama. Gaping holes. They just weren't the hole that the play was designed to be ran through. He's not patient in the backfield. That's a great trait when the hole is open and a terrible trait when it isn't. Devonta Freeman sort of runs the same way, he just has one speed and it's full tilt. He's got a lot of wiggle though that Fournette doesn't possess. Not everyone can be Leveon Bell when it comes to patience and vision, I get that I just think it's more than a deficiency in Fournettes game, it looks like a flat out weakness. Given his athletic ability and tenacious playing style though, he's going to be a homerun hitter. I think he'll have a lot of 50 yard games with some 175 yard games sprinkled in throughout his career. Going to a team with a mediocre offensive line is a death sentence for him imo. He's not a create on my own type of player.
That's actually a pretty damn good assessment. Fournette improved a lot from his Freshman-Sophomore year & really improved his pass blocking while at LSU. He has much better hands out of the backfield than he's given credit for imo. His lack of vision is pretty obvious, but he may end up correcting the problem while he's in the NFL. If he does that...he'll be a hell of a RB. He's pretty deadly when he gets to the 2nd level.
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 2:46 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 2:49 pm to Riseupfromtherubble
quote:
Guice can navigate from one side of a phone booth to the other in 10 steps, Fournette just puts his head down and tries to run through it.
You're greatly, greatly underestimating his cutting ability and ability to make people miss. He sets up defenders as well as anyone. His lateral ability, especially for his size, is elite.
And while LF7 doesn't have Guice's insane vision, he's still well, well above the average in that department
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 2:59 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
You're greatly, greatly underestimating his cutting ability and ability to make people miss. He sets up defenders as well as anyone. His lateral ability, especially for his size, is elite.
I'm not underestimating it at all. He's good at this in space and in 1-on-1 situations. Guice makes guys miss, often multiple guys, in tight spaces. He squeezes every yard out of a run and can react to defenders closing down in his peripheral vision. That's an innate ability. I don't see it out of Fournette. Setting up a safety or corner in a 1-on-1 and making him miss is impressive for a guy his size, but I don't see the instinctive cutting in the box that he'll need at the next level. He's content with running as hard as he can and gaining three yards when it doesn't appear to be there. Some of those 3 yard runs are 8 yard runs for Guice.
Posted on 2/15/17 at 3:01 pm to Riseupfromtherubble
That's insane "wiggle" for a 230 pounder
quote:
He's content with running as hard as he can and gaining three yards when it doesn't appear to be there.
That's hilarious given that his biggest criticism has been not giving up on plays. That's actually going to be one of his biggest adjustments. Take the 3 yards when it is there instead of trying to bust it
He forces more missed tackles than anyone in CFB. And that includes Henry who had way more touches than him
quote:
I don't see it out of Fournette
Can't help the blind see.
The whole reason Bama is so effective against him is that they fill cutback holes so well and can force him lateral
He's an exceptional cutback runner. It's just something you've heard a few times based on 1 team that gets parroted over and over again
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 3:13 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 3:18 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
He forces more missed tackles than anyone in CFB. And that includes Henry who had way more touches than him
I hate to be a stickler here, but Fournette had 14 more career carries than Henry. The website I'm sure you're citing also describes him as leading the way in broken tackles
You won't find an argument from me that he was excellent at breaking tackles in college. We'll see how that translates to the NFL. I wouldn't put too much stock into that PFF stat though, Trent Richardson was in the top 5 in the NFL in 2013 in that metric
LINK
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 3:20 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 3:25 pm to Riseupfromtherubble
quote:
I hate to be a stickler here, but Fournette had 14 more career carries than Henry.
Well I was obviously talking about 2015 where Henry had 395 carries and 11 catches compared to 300 carries for LF7 and 19 catches.
quote:
But where Fournette really distinguished himself was in his ability to break tackles. He had 85 forced missed tackles as a runner alone (he added 10 more as a receiver) — the highest number in the nation. To put into perspective just how good that is, Heisman winner Derrick Henry of Alabama had 76 as a runner – on 96 more attempts than Fournette.
quote:
The website I'm sure you're citing also describes him as leading the way in broken tackles
quote:
But where Fournette really distinguished himself was in his ability to break tackles. He had 85 forced missed tackles as a runner alone (he added 10 more as a receiver) — the highest number in the nation. To put into perspective just how good that is, Heisman winner Derrick Henry of Alabama had 76 as a runner – on 96 more attempts than Fournette.
quote:
Could it be anyone else? His 85 missed tackles forced were the most of any running back in the nation, let alone the SEC. Adding another 10 missed tackles as a receiver, Fournette is in the range that a 100 missed tackle forced season isn’t out of the question.
Also interesting from PFF:
LINK
quote:
There’s no question that Cook was one of the most difficult running backs to tackle in college football last season. He averaged 4.0 yards per rush after contact in 2015, the third-highest average in the nation and over half of his 7.4 yards per carry average. He also finished fifth in the nation in elusive rating, which is PFF’s measure of how effective a running back is at generating yards independent of his blocking. (The Seminoles produced an average overall run-blocking grade in 2015, slightly lower than LSU’s.)
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 3:32 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 3:34 pm to TigerBait1127
Well that's just poor on PFF's part, because they also said this
quote:
But Fournette is close to an unstoppable force as a runner. No player in college football – not McCaffrey, nor the actual Heisman winner, Alabama’s Derrick Henry — broke more tackles than Fournette last season (85 as a runner, 10 as a receiver), en route to his posting the No. 1 rushing grade among RBs Fournette’s power is obvious, but what earns him Adrian Peterson comparisons is his combination of strength and speed.
Posted on 2/15/17 at 4:43 pm to Riseupfromtherubble
quote:
I love when people speak in absolutes. That's a 200 pound cornerback stoning him in the gap by the way
First off, the Tide have 7 defenders committed to the box on that play. There's actually 8 if you count #24 who comes charging in late.
Secondly, the cornerback makes the tackle but the 2 interior lineman ruin the play from the snap. I can't tell all the numbers on the jerseys from the gif but the lineman who was over center Pocic jumps the snap count, pushes Pocic back into the backfield instantly causing Fournette to have to make his decision on where to run almost as he is receiving the handoff.
Lastly, this was a predictable, off tackle run look to the strong side where TE Desean Smith was lined up. The defense knew where the direction of the play presnap because it was predictable as frick. The corner makes the tackle but every defender who was in the box squeezes down the right side C gap on this play because every defender knew the direction the run was headed before the ball was even snapped. The corner even knows its a run to the C gap from his alignment presnap. There's 2 things this gif shows.
One, it shows the Tiger's offensive line losing at the point of attack. Pocic gets shoved back at the snap, Vadal Alexander gets stonewalled providing no push whatsoever & Desean Smith allows Denzel Duvall to squeeze the C gap causing Fournette to have to slow down as he nears the line of scrimmage. I don't care who the running back is, they will not have success trying run with that much penetration & lack of a running lane.
Two, it shows just how predictable & outdated the Tiger's offense truly was. In the battle coaching minds, this was a mismatch. No misdirection, no other threats option wise from the look of the formation, no zone read. Had this been a zone read option for Harris, he has room to run for days with the defense keying on Fournette. All you did was prove just how simple this offensive scheme was to prepare for. I guarantee it didn't take the entire 2 weeks before these matchups for Saban & his staff to derive a game plan, install & have his players executing in practice what it was going to take to stop the LSU ground game.
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 5:21 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 4:56 pm to GMoney2600
quote:
His lack of vision is pretty obvious
Fournette doesn’t have a vision problem. He had an ankle problem. This past season he did everything possible to limit having to make a cut on his ankle which included taking designed inside runs & bouncing them outside. Those same runs in 2015, he would make his cut off the block of his FB & be off to the races.
From fall camp, Fournette was never right with his ankle & now people are taking the limitations he had from the high ankle sprain & misdirecting that into him having poor vision. It's simply not true. I bet that freshman safety from Ole Miss wishes Fournette didn't have ankle issues this season because Leonard cuts that play back inside & races for the endzone if he could have been able to cut back. Instead, he just tried to run right through the safety.
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Posted on 2/15/17 at 5:03 pm to BigBrod81
It's his biggest & only weakness imo. I'm not saying he has horrible vision, but he doesn't always choose the best path. I just think he needs to be more patient(he seems to make up his mind where he's going too fast). If I had to criticize a part of his game...that would be it, b/c there really isn't anything else to nitpick on. Still a top 10 talent though, and a very complete RB. Some people question his pass protection and hands out of the backfield, but I feel he's actually pretty good in those areas.
This post was edited on 2/15/17 at 5:14 pm
Posted on 2/15/17 at 5:14 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
That's insane "wiggle" for a 230 pounder
Let me help you out with a few more to prove your point.
There's a jump cut back inside of the CB
A ridiculous start & stop juke to freeze the DE to the inside.
A shoulder shimy to hold the safety to the inside then acceleration to outside.
Another ridiculous jump cut on a safety
That one doesn't need an explanation. It speaks for itself.
Posted on 2/15/17 at 6:34 pm to Paul Allen
I think Freeman is a good call actually.
guys like David Johnson, Bell, and Zeke ate up more touches while Freeman played in an offense that distributed the bal around a lot.
I think Gurley is also a prime choice but faltered this past year cause the Rams were just a pathetic group on offense with a shitty rookie QB.
Gurley is an elite talent that deserves recognition but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't include him too.
guys like David Johnson, Bell, and Zeke ate up more touches while Freeman played in an offense that distributed the bal around a lot.
I think Gurley is also a prime choice but faltered this past year cause the Rams were just a pathetic group on offense with a shitty rookie QB.
Gurley is an elite talent that deserves recognition but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't include him too.
Posted on 2/15/17 at 6:45 pm to LooseCannon22282
quote:
Gurley is an elite talent that deserves recognition but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't include him too.
Yep. The Rams offensive line was downright pathetic in 2016. Greg Robinson is proving to be a huge bust for them. He is making Thibodaux look bad.
Posted on 2/16/17 at 8:47 am to BigBrod81
quote:
First off, the Tide have 7 defenders committed to the box on that play.
There's actually 6 guys in the box, but 7 is still not "stacking" the box. There are 4 linemen and two linebackers. Humphrey is not in the box
quote:
There's actually 8 if you count #24 who comes charging in late.
I mean good Lord man, what's he supposed to do on running plays? Let's just call it 11 in the box and say Alabama put 11 in the box and that's why they always stop Fournette
quote:
Two, it shows just how predictable & outdated the Tiger's offense truly was. In the battle coaching minds, this was a mismatch. No misdirection, no other threats option wise from the look of the formation, no zone read. Had this been a zone read option for Harris, he has room to run for days with the defense keying on Fournette. All you did was prove just how simple this offensive scheme was to prepare for. I guarantee it didn't take the entire 2 weeks before these matchups for Saban & his staff to derive a game plan, install & have his players executing in practice what it was going to take to stop the LSU ground game.
It's the same scheme that churned out yards on the ground against just about everyone over the years. So Alabama's front 7 was better than LSU's offensive line. Let's be honest, he was abysmal against Alabama for 3 years. What do you think is going to happen in the NFL? It's very likely that he is picked by a team that will be at a disadvantage up front more often than not, except now there are even better athletes trying to stop him. God help him if he goes to a team like the Jets with no passing game
Posted on 2/16/17 at 9:21 am to Riseupfromtherubble
quote:
There's actually 6 guys in the box, but 7 is still not "stacking" the box. There are 4 linemen and two linebackers. Humphrey is not in the box
LSU is in a 3 WR set. Bama is essentially playing a 1 safety defense there.
That is absolutely stacking the box against that formation. LSU has 6 to block 7, not even including the guy moving up and inside the slot receiver pre-snap
quote:
Humphrey
Is playing 5 yards off the LoS
For christ sakes, he made the tackle in the gap.
Then again, you think there is a cutback opportunity to a position where his Center was being completely manhandled
quote:
I mean good Lord man, what's he supposed to do on running plays? Let's just call it 11 in the box and say Alabama put 11 in the box and that's why they always stop Fournette
Ugh, he's talking about pre-snap. Did you even watch your clip?
quote:
What do you think is going to happen in the NFL? It's very likely that he is picked by a team that will be at a disadvantage up front more often than not, except now there are even better athletes trying to stop him. God help him if he goes to a team like the Jets with no passing game
The same thing that will happen to guys like Peterson and Gurley when there is consistent interior penetration.
hell, you see the same thing at the QB level. Almost like offensive lines are extremely important.
quote:
It's the same scheme that churned out yards on the ground against just about everyone over the years. So Alabama's front 7 was better than LSU's offensive line.
I feel like you're missing the entire point here. It is a reason that LF7 is so great, not a knock against him. He's able to overcome the scheme deficiencies against every defense, except against arguably one of the greatest front 7s in CFB history.
Bama's success against LSU comes from consistent internal penetration, and linebackers that fill the gaps with ease. Trying to bounce runs doesn't work, despite your criticism of that earlier. That is literally what Bama is trying to make happen
This post was edited on 2/16/17 at 9:42 am
Posted on 2/16/17 at 9:46 am to TigerBait1127
quote:
LSU is in a 3 WR set. Bama is essentially playing a 1 safety defense there.
There's 3 guys in man with a safety up top.
quote:
LSU has 6 to block 7, not even including the guy moving up and inside the slot receiver pre-snap
New to football? Unless the quarterback is carrying the ball, the defense will outnumber the blockers. Why would you include the guy with a 10 yard cushion on the slot receiver? Because he came into the frame?
quote:
Is playing 5 yards off the LoS
He's 6 yards off the los, he's not in the box
quote:
Ugh, he's talking about pre-snap. Did you even watch your clip?
I did, did you? The safety, Geno Smith, doesn't even appear in the frame until Fournette is at the line of scrimmage. What the hell are you watching? There are 6 guys in the box when the ball is snapped. No one is crashing into the box until Fournette gets the ball
quote:
Then again, you think there is a cutback opportunity to a position where his Center was being completely manhandled
There's absolutely an opportunity for a cutback. Pocic gets jarred backwards but both he and the left tackle get their guy turned towards the play. The nose tackle isn't touching Fournette if he cuts it back there
Better example of missing a hole when the blocking is perfect
This post was edited on 2/16/17 at 10:05 am
Posted on 2/16/17 at 10:06 am to Riseupfromtherubble
quote:
There's 3 guys in man with a safety up top.
So a cover 1....
quote:
New to football? Unless the quarterback is carrying the ball, the defense will outnumber the blockers.
Let's simplify this. In a normal defensive setup (4-3, 3-4, nickel, or dime), how many safeties are there?
quote:
Why would you include the guy with a 10 yard cushion on the slot receiver? Because he came into the frame?
Because of his positioning in the defense. He's 7 yards off the LoS at the snap and positioned inside the snap. It allows for run support
quote:
He's 6 yards off the los, he's not in the box
He's 5 yards off, and is in an area for run support, which he literally showed by making the play.
In today's nickel heavy packages, that is putting a secondary player in the box. You see players like Vaccaro and TM7 doing the same thing. They are put in a position where they can provide outstanding run support
quote:
I did, did you? The safety, Geno Smith, doesn't even appear in the frame until Fournette is at the line of scrimmage. What the hell are you watching? There are 6 guys in the box when the ball is snapped. No one is crashing into the box until Fournette gets the ball
Ah, I was talking about the far safety covering the slot. I see the confusion
I agree with you there.
quote:
Pocic gets jarred backwards but both he and the left tackle get their guy turned towards the play. The nose tackle isn't touching Fournette if he cuts it back there
He made the right decision. His biggest mistake against Bama was trying to stretch plays out instead of taking the 2-3 yards. That is something that Reggie Bush and Mark Ingram struggled with when he entered the league too. Sometimes the 2-3 yards is the best play
quote:
Better example of missing a hole when the blocking is perfect
I'm not saying he hasn't missed holes. Every single running back to ever play misses them. What I'm saying is that he's usually outstanding at making the right decision, and is a phenomenal 1 cut running back.
There was also a huge difference in that ability this year vs the previous year when he was healthy and playing every week
The 2nd play in that video is laughably stupid
This post was edited on 2/16/17 at 10:31 am
Posted on 2/16/17 at 10:47 am to TigerBait1127
In the end he's not going to be there at 11 and the saints are trading up for him, so it's all moot relative to the saints. He'll probably end up a jag or jet
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