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Message
re: Why the hate for Jaxson Hayes?
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:02 am to Bronc
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:02 am to Bronc
quote:
But it is true Simmons has been known to hit threes pretty well in practice:
Dude, it doesn’t matter what I say. These people have decided I’m a troll that doesn’t know what I’m talking about, and anything I say is “fake news” to them.
I’ve repeatedly said I don’t have anything against Hayes, just don’t think the likely outcome of the player he will be is a good fit with Zion. I said he would be perfect on a team like Atlanta, which I saw yesterday was one of the places to which he was being mocked the most.
quote:
And this is Shaq on his FT issues in games
Said he used to routinely make 50 in a row in practice. Anyone who didn’t understand my point is obviously just being a dick because I said it.
People legit want me to stop posting on this board for saying things that are pretty obvious points in the modern NBA.
Doesn’t matter what podcasts I listened to. People will just call them idiots for not agreeing with them.
I’ve been around this site for a while. I think I’ve demonstrated for the most part I know my stuff. If people want to be mad, whatever. I don’t mind being in the minority in a debate, especially when I know what I’m saying makes sense.
1
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:03 am to Fun Bunch
Lol. I agree. I like the pick but it certainly wouldnt surprise me to see him avg less than 20 mins a game this year...possibly 5-10 range.
I think it will depend upon his abilty to play D and rebound early. IMO, he needs to add strength and use a bit more discipline on D to be an early contributor.
If he develops offensively by yr 3, I will be very pleased.
I think it will depend upon his abilty to play D and rebound early. IMO, he needs to add strength and use a bit more discipline on D to be an early contributor.
If he develops offensively by yr 3, I will be very pleased.
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:08 am to Bronc
quote:
But I think when you do find a big that can initiate offense, hit jumpers at a good level, drive, and post, with elite athleticism and ball handling, that is going to be a special player. And I think the Pels just got the makings of that special player.
great point but that’s zion not Hayes. Hayes will likely never be any kind of traditional big man offense weapon nor will be likely be a shooter on the perimeter. But that’s what zion is for
Hayes is a high definition althlete which is where the big man game is going outside of the zion/davis types. He should easily find a role if he’s got it between his ears
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:11 am to SlowFlowPro
Tim Duncan is a top 5 Center of all time and about 5 years ago his teams were perennial powerhouses. That was when he wad close to 40. That isn't a fluke. A serious post player that averages 20+ on .600 shooting and dominates the paint is paradigm shifting. They will always dominate and win.
Just look at the past 5-10 years and analyze what great 7 footers have come into league. Now how dedicated were they to the game? I mean seriously dedicated and committed themselves to becoming a great Center. The list is pretty bare. Guys like Davis, Cousins and KAT are soft and are scared to play inside. Jordan, Drummond and Whiteside are uncoordinated and lack skill. Ayton has potential but still very raw. There are only a few of these guys that exist at a time.
You drop a prime Moses Malone in todays game and he averages 25/15. Plus his team is winning 50+. We saw it to a small extent with Howard in Orlando. It's simple and ugly, but super effecient..
Just look at the past 5-10 years and analyze what great 7 footers have come into league. Now how dedicated were they to the game? I mean seriously dedicated and committed themselves to becoming a great Center. The list is pretty bare. Guys like Davis, Cousins and KAT are soft and are scared to play inside. Jordan, Drummond and Whiteside are uncoordinated and lack skill. Ayton has potential but still very raw. There are only a few of these guys that exist at a time.
You drop a prime Moses Malone in todays game and he averages 25/15. Plus his team is winning 50+. We saw it to a small extent with Howard in Orlando. It's simple and ugly, but super effecient..
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:14 am to brmark70816
quote:
Tim Duncan is a top 5 Center of all time and about 5 years ago his teams were perennial powerhouses
Duncan's prime was pre-analytics and was during the rule changes. 5 years ago he was doing what we hope Hayes can do
quote:
Guys like Davis, Cousins and KAT are soft and are scared to play inside.
ye gods
quote:
You drop a prime Moses Malone in todays game and he averages 25/15
and his team loses more than with a modern set up
quote:
We saw it to a small extent with Howard in Orlando.
8 years ago?
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:15 am to brmark70816
I agree but i also agree with something someone else said: those type players seem to be dying out. Instead of learning low post moves, bigs are wanting to be stretches or they are too slow to keep up.
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:22 am to SlowFlowPro
There aren't any great recent examples. Maybe Embiid. But even he is in love with shooting outside and is undisciplined. There hasn't been a Shaq level prospect since Shaq. But he would still be unstoppable today.
I just don't agree. I would need to see a great conventional Center fail to believe this. There is just too much history to assume otherwise. This has all happened before..
I just don't agree. I would need to see a great conventional Center fail to believe this. There is just too much history to assume otherwise. This has all happened before..
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:23 am to landrywasbeast30
I feel you, there has definitely been a cult like reactionary vibe to any criticism of the move. As I am not the biggest fan of it either.
I have a slightly different take but my takes have gotten the same sort of scorn. For some reason this board has gotten incredibly immature and riddled with group-think bullying only rivaled by the poliboard since the lead up to the draft. As it wasn’t but a couple months ago when the board was a model of civility with very well articulated and calm discussions about the pros and cons of the various GM candidates and the packages for AD. Fast forward to today and there is a loud constituency of thin skinned fans so caught up in the cult of personality and perceived infallibility of Griffin that they will attack and try and bully out anyone that has a deviating opinion relative to the ongoing groupthink consensus. Hayes has been the perfect manifestation of that trend.
Though as I looked at the posts of people most engaging in it, despite claims to the contrary, it seems like a lot of them are the band wagoners that don’t spend much time here and are just carrying over the culture and proclivities of the other boards as they drive by this one because it’s the talk of sports. Things seem to have calmed back down a little bit and I’m not having to fend off obvious disingenuous bullshite and drunken personal attacks from all directions because I dared to say I think the Hayes trade was flawed and explained my reasoning.
I have a slightly different take but my takes have gotten the same sort of scorn. For some reason this board has gotten incredibly immature and riddled with group-think bullying only rivaled by the poliboard since the lead up to the draft. As it wasn’t but a couple months ago when the board was a model of civility with very well articulated and calm discussions about the pros and cons of the various GM candidates and the packages for AD. Fast forward to today and there is a loud constituency of thin skinned fans so caught up in the cult of personality and perceived infallibility of Griffin that they will attack and try and bully out anyone that has a deviating opinion relative to the ongoing groupthink consensus. Hayes has been the perfect manifestation of that trend.
Though as I looked at the posts of people most engaging in it, despite claims to the contrary, it seems like a lot of them are the band wagoners that don’t spend much time here and are just carrying over the culture and proclivities of the other boards as they drive by this one because it’s the talk of sports. Things seem to have calmed back down a little bit and I’m not having to fend off obvious disingenuous bullshite and drunken personal attacks from all directions because I dared to say I think the Hayes trade was flawed and explained my reasoning.
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:27 am to Bronc
you didn’t like the player or the trade in general?
I thought the trade was great value, jury is out on the player. I thought goga would have been a better pick or Brandon Clarke even
I thought the trade was great value, jury is out on the player. I thought goga would have been a better pick or Brandon Clarke even
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:27 am to brmark70816
quote:
There hasn't been a Shaq level prospect since Shaq
and until there is a fundamental change in the rules, there won't be another
quote:
But he would still be unstoppable today.
if he could get a 1-on-1 clearout with the old illegal defense rules, maybe.
quote:
I would need to see a great conventional Center fail to believe this.
you would likely reject the analytics and look at raw stats to show how "dominant" he would be
you wouldn't realize he's failing while you praise him
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:30 am to brmark70816
quote:
Tim Duncan is a top 5 Center of all time and about 5 years ago his teams were perennial powerhouses. That was when he wad close to 40. That isn't a fluke. A serious post player that averages 20+ on .600 shooting and dominates the paint is paradigm shifting. They will always dominate and win.
Wait, are you under the impression that those last couple Duncan teams were built around his post play?
The entire reason those last 2 finals teams were great, and why people loved watching them, was because of how the ball moved around until they found a good shot. They were incredibly unselfish as a team, and the ball didn’t stick in anyone’s hands for more than like 2 seconds.
Also, the league hadn’t fully become what it is now. That was basically when it was starting with Bosh. But yeah, giving it to Duncan down low was not what made those teams special.
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:35 am to brmark70816
quote:
You drop a prime Moses Malone in todays game and he averages 25/15. Plus his team is winning 50+. We saw it to a small extent with Howard in Orlando. It's simple and ugly, but super effecient
It only worked because it carried with it elite shooting to balance out the offensive attack. And it was done 10 years ago when analytics still hadn’t really taken hold.
And even then it failed to get over the hump to more wing orientated teams. I.E. the Kobe Lakers.
I’m with SlowPro on this, the game has just changed too much for that type of offense to outperform the best of the modern offenses that are structured around the rules and knowledge of the modern era.
I think that skill set can work and be exploitative, but you can’t just expect to drop the type of player and type of system of that era into today, it will require adjustment. Just the Howard era you speak of was not a classic low post system, but one that, through the gravity of the way the game changed, substituted out the traditional archetypes for a 4 out, 1 in type of set up. Since bigs were more constrained post Shaq rules, and the game was called disproportionately in favor of guards and wings. Same would happen today.
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:36 am to SlowFlowPro
If a 7'1, 300lb proportioned, coordinated prospect with above average atheletic ability and mean streak came into the league, you believe he wouldn't make it until he learns to shoot 3 pointers?
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:41 am to landrywasbeast30
[/url][url=Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:47 am to Bronc
quote:
I feel you, there has definitely been a cult like reactionary vibe to any criticism of the move
quote:
For some reason this board has gotten incredibly immature and riddled with group-think bullying only rivaled by the poliboard since the lead up to the draft. As it wasn’t but a couple months ago when the board was a model of civility with very well articulated and calm discussions about the pros and cons of the various GM candidates and the packages for AD. Fast forward to today and there is a loud constituency of thin skinned fans so caught up in the cult of personality and perceived infallibility of Griffin that they will attack and try and bully out anyone that has a deviating opinion relative to the ongoing groupthink consensus. Hayes has been the perfect manifestation of that trend.
I pointed out the attitude shift that you mentioned like 2 days after they won the lottery. It immediately went from jubilation from getting the pick, to outrage at anyone who wasn’t a Pels fan. People on here were seeking out things to be angry at after landing a generational talent.
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:48 am to cgrand
quote:
you didn’t like the player or the trade in general?
I thought the trade was great value, jury is out on the player. I thought goga would have been a better pick or Brandon Clarke even
I summed it up in another thread this way, I don’t hate the players, I just think as of right now it was trading a B+ situation for a C+ situation.
I don’t see Hill’s contract as the negative some like to frame it as, which was the capitulation we made with Atlanta according to Lowe in pushing for the 8 and 10 pick. As I see Hill’s contract as a commodity toward the deadline and nothing that needed to be rushed out of unless Griffin has a max worthy player lined up.
I don’t dislike Hayes, but I also think that based on a conservative read of Zion’s skill set coming into the league, and a realistic projection of Hayes niche(which is an around the rim player who can maybe switch a bit and be a good rim protector, maybe elite), Hayes is not a guy that I see as a 35 minute guy that can play next to Zion 6 seasons from now when Zion is likely closing games at the five and needing shooters around him. Which makes his likely contract if he reaches that potential problematic. And he takes up a position that such a skill set is found relatively cheap in FA today and in later parts of the draft(you mention Goga, and I think realistically their career arcs aren’t going to be too dissimilar in terms of success, and perhaps Goga is even more geared to the modern NBA with his established jumper, and he was had in the second half of the first round).
I think much higher of Garland, and think Hunter was a guy that could step in and be a Barnes type role player in a league where you need 3-4 wings to be a contender and they are at a premium and scarcity in this league.
Again, I think Hayes will be fine. I think NAW can hopefully be a Josh Hart type role player off the bench, Hayes will remain a positive asset unless he really flames out, it wasn’t like I think it is a awful decision with no positives to name, and maybe that cap space will be the difference in finding some second unheralded talent, but for me, as of now, I wouldn’t have done the deal. The opportunity cost to me was too high and I would have needed to see a different trade and return to conclude otherwise. Not saying F, just saying I think we went from an B+ to A- situation to a C+ to B- situation. We still got better, I just think there was a better path.
This post was edited on 6/23/19 at 11:54 am
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:52 am to Bronc
perfectly defensible position
nothing at all like the meltdown that was going on around that though which is why I think a lot of posters got aggravated. The board is better off without all that nonsense
nothing at all like the meltdown that was going on around that though which is why I think a lot of posters got aggravated. The board is better off without all that nonsense
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:54 am to brmark70816
quote:
If a 7'1, 300lb proportioned, coordinated prospect with above average atheletic ability and mean streak came into the league, you believe he wouldn't make it until he learns to shoot 3 pointers?
no but he wouldn't be as effective as shaq was
first of all, defensively, he'd have major issues. they'd just pnr until he was either iso'd or they had open lanes to the basket. if he wasn't on the primary guy, they'd pull his man out to neutralize the shot blocking
offensively he could get his for sure, but (1) his team would sacrifice efficiency and (2) his team would sacrifice pace
so even a prime shaq could get 30/15 but it would end up being a philosophy that loses more games than you'd imagine
Posted on 6/23/19 at 11:56 am to Bronc
quote:
I just think as of right now it was trading a B+ situation for a C+ situation.
i agree and, as you know, i don't rate garland super highly
quote:
I don’t see Hill’s contract as the negative some like to frame it as, which was the capitulation we made with Atlanta according to Lowe in pushing for the 8 and 10 pick. As I see Hill’s contract as a commodity toward the deadline and nothing that needed to be rushed out of unless Griffin has a max worthy player lined up.
the issue is we have all this cap room but who the frick are we going to spend it on? there aren't many great options and a lot of scary ones
quote:
I think much higher of Garland, and think Hunter was a guy that could step in and be a Barnes type role player in a league where you need 3-4 wings to be a contender and they are at a premium and scarcity in this league.
yeah if we make a move for barnes (to borrow from another thread) i'll lose my shite b/c we could have just picked hunter
Posted on 6/23/19 at 12:02 pm to cgrand
quote:
perfectly defensible position
His Zion/Hayes take is almost exactly what I’ve been saying, just with different words.
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