- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Coaching Changes
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Spacing on this team is terrible.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:45 am to shel311
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:45 am to shel311
quote:
The current roster makeup is just not really good for Zion, and I think we need to be building around him.
I think we all know that, and knew that after the trade in the offseason.
Griffin knows that too. We just need to be patient. I know everyone wants to win now, but this year isn't that important when it comes to winning. We need to assess what we have and make the moves necessary to move to competing better in the next 2 years. I expect to finish above .500 this year, and after that, we should be a perennial 50+ win team from there on out.
We need to play Kira. If he could be Devonte Graham, that would open up so much for this team's potential future. If NAW can hit open 3's and create for the back up unit, that's a big step. I think Jaxson will continue to get better, not starter better, but run with the second unit.
Kira needs to be our PG. BI needs to be at the 2. We need a true 3 and D SF. Prince hit 39% from 3 in 3 of his last 4 years. He's a capable enough defender. We could easily get him for JJ. I think Harrison Barnes is the perfect 3&D guy for us right now. Why we haven't even attempted to draft that position befuddles me. We could have easily moved up to get Saddiq Bey this year. Zion obviously at the 4. Adams needs to be on this team, but we need a 3rd big that can shoot and will play 25+ minutes a night. Markannan would fit that bill easily. If I have to give out $20M/yr to a player for next year, i'd rather it be a stretch 4/5 than Lonzo.
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 10:50 am
2
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:48 am to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
I don’t think those numbers bear out. An upper 30s shooter would make worlds difference
This is comparing Zion's percentage at the rim, why they're putting 3-5 people in the paint, to 3 point shooting.
Last season Zion shot .744 within 3 feet.
.668 x 2 = 1.336 points per shot
an equivalent 3 point percentage to equal 1.336 points per shot:
.445 x 3 = 1.336
That's the math that says pack the paint. Now the Pels have enough other things going for them that even average shooting would probably make teams pay enough that the Pels would be a very good team. If you can find a way to keep the defense stout while upgrading the shooting, you definitely upgrade the shooting, but I don't believe that will stop teams from seeing Zion as the biggest threat so the paint will still be packed IMO. That's just something they need to learn to take advantage of.
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 11:57 am
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:49 am to TeddyPadillac
Ingram/Zion/Adams can work...
but not with Ball and Bledsoe.
To work we need two guards that can create and absolutely bomb it off the dribble...and that teams RESPECT them to do it consistently.
but not with Ball and Bledsoe.
To work we need two guards that can create and absolutely bomb it off the dribble...and that teams RESPECT them to do it consistently.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:49 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:I don't disagree, but I think every move we make, one of the most important themes in mind should be does it help Zion reach his max potential.
I think we all know that, and knew that after the trade in the offseason.
Griffin knows that too. We just need to be patient. I know everyone wants to win now, but this year isn't that important when it comes to winning. We need to assess what we have and make the moves necessary to move to competing better in the next 2 years
I just don't think Adams does that, and we've given him a 2 year extension. If Adams was playing 25mpg but more of a bench role staggered opposite Zion with a spacer at the 5 with Zion, it would make more sense, so maybe that's something down the road.
But this season plus 2 more of Adams starting and not much opportunity to stagger with Zion, I don't think we'll ever get the full Zion we all want and expect.
That being said, Zion himself could benefit from improving in the passing game to offset some of those spacing issues, so it's not like I'm throwing it all on Adams here. I think there are some aspects where we probably all assumed Zion would be a bit better than he has been even though it's only been 30 games.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:52 am to TigerinATL
quote:Interesting, BRef has it at 66.8%
Last season Zion shot .744 within 3 feet.
But at any rate, you gotta think about how many of those are uncontested then how many are in single coverage. Then for the sake of this discussion, you'd essentially have to remove those, although I know that we may not have access to that type of info, but you get what I'm saying.
We're talking about when Zion sees the wall, a double/triple team. He's not shooting 67% or 74% or whatever the # is once that wall is built, and that is when the 3pt shooter comes in handy. That or Zion just being able to get it to any open person. Even as it stands now, if we had 4 shooters around Zion, we still wouldn't reach max productiveness since Zion hasn't shown the ability to hit that open man.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:53 am to Fun Bunch
quote:That's a great point too. Just collectively, the roster construction has major holes in it when you view it specifically towards maxing out Zion, which is what we should be doing.
Ingram/Zion/Adams can work...
but not with Ball and Bledsoe.
If he's our generational guy, the goal needs to be to build the team around him. It's only year 2, but I'd like to at least see it trending in that direction.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:53 am to shel311
quote:
I think there are some aspects where we probably all assumed Zion would be a bit better than he has been even though it's only been 30 games.
That's the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about.
He's been a terrible passer, he loses his dribble constantly turning it over, and he still doesn't look like Duke Zion from a quickness and agility aspect.
His handle is what is most irritating to me. He needs to get it fixed, and he needs to be able to have guys set picks for him. a guy like Redick (that can actually hit an open 3) setting a pick for Zion (who could dribble drive without turning it over so often) would create all sorts of havoc for a defense.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:56 am to shel311
It depends on what SVG is asking Zion to do. Could it be something that SVG wants? Could it be He'd much rather Zion attack the rim to draw fouls and score than pass it out for a low percentage shot? Zion attacking the rim is still a insanely high percentage shot. He started out the season passing out much more often and kind of stopped a couple of games in.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 10:57 am to shel311
Zion has played 31 nba games. Even after teams have adjusted and with him admittedly struggling, he's still averaging 20 and 8 on 53.5% fg. And that's with him still forcing the issue.
This dude can grow into an absolute monster. His gravity is fricking insane. I've never seen a big triple teamed as much as he has been after only 31 games.
This dude can grow into an absolute monster. His gravity is fricking insane. I've never seen a big triple teamed as much as he has been after only 31 games.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:00 am to shel311
quote:
I'm just curious on those numbers as I'd assume any 3pt shooter who shoots, say, 38% or so with some amount of volume would be a much more efficient shot shooting a wide open catch and shoot 3 as opposed to Zion trying to score over 3 defenders.
I’ve wondered this as well, because when you dig into Zion’s numbers, around 85% of his shots this season are considered tight(65% frequency) or very tight(25% frequency) and he is only shooting around 51% in that scenario, which mind you is still pretty respectable considering the double and triple teams, and 53% on the year. But of course you also have to factor in his 9% TOV rate in isolation, So in theory, in that situation a 36% three point shooter is the better option. Now, put some solid +40% catch and shoot players around Zion and you would be having to make some hard choices that would be putting a lot more pressure on defenses.
Problem is our guards are shooting 33% and 32% on catch and shoot threes respectively. Lonzo is currently respectable if you can get him 6+ feet open, but close out to within 6 feet and he drops to 32%.
It very well could and will likely be the case most teams are willing to take those chances for all but the most prolific of shooters, and I think that’s a pretty safe bet, but you still would prefer having guys that can hit shots and put pressure on defenses to break down. Since Zion is going to have to kick out regularly, and you want the players he kicks to to be efficient in the areas they receive the ball.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:01 am to TigerinATL
they're always going to pack the paint against Zion.
The difference is whether or not there is anyone he can pass to that softens that packing on a play for play basis. Whether or not when he passes out of the double, they actually have to guard someone else or they can just sit back and wait for bricks.
And you should run the numbers on how many points per possession would be generated different with seth curry catch and shoots than ball.
The difference is whether or not there is anyone he can pass to that softens that packing on a play for play basis. Whether or not when he passes out of the double, they actually have to guard someone else or they can just sit back and wait for bricks.
And you should run the numbers on how many points per possession would be generated different with seth curry catch and shoots than ball.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:02 am to Bronc
quote:
It very well could and will likely be the case most teams are willing to take those chances for all but the most prolific of shooters, and I think that’s a pretty safe bet, but you still would prefer having guys that can hit shots and put pressure on defenses to break down. Since Zion is going to have to kick out regularly, and you want the players he kicks to to be efficient in the areas they receive the ball.
this.
My thought is that Stan inherently understands this given the construction of some of the Dwight teams.
But I don't know.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:03 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:All true.
Zion has played 31 nba games. Even after teams have adjusted and with him admittedly struggling, he's still averaging 20 and 8 on 53.5% fg. And that's with him still forcing the issue.
Also true is, I think we all expected him to come in and immediately be a better passer and better on defense than he's been.
Both can be true. In fact, I'd argue not a single person thought he'd be as ineffective on defense right now in year 2/game 31, we all thought right out of the gate game 1 he'd be much better defensively than he's been.
He can be all the great and unbelievable things he has been, but also not as good in some regards in certain aspects as we thought.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:04 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
This dude can grow into an absolute monster. His gravity is fricking insane. I've never seen a big triple teamed as much as he has been after only 31 games.
he can.
And imagine the winning if after they triple team, it leads to open shots for people who can actually hit them.
Also imagine when they start hitting a few, and the doubles have to come less aggressively. Or leave earlier than they like.
That's the problem with the spacing. They camp on Zion because the pels have no one to make them pay for doubling zion.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:05 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
He's been a terrible passer, he loses his dribble constantly turning it over, and he still doesn't look like Duke Zion from a quickness and agility aspect.
This is what worries me too. Somehow I still think he's too heavy.
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 11:06 am
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:07 am to shel311
quote:
he'd be as ineffective on defense right now in year 2/game 31, we all thought right out of the gate game 1 he'd be much better defensively than he's been.
I'd say inconsistent instead of ineffective. He had a 5 steal game earlier this year, and handled himself pretty well against sabonis last night.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:07 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
Ingram/Zion/Adams can work...
but not with Ball and Bledsoe.
I even think you can have ONE of them. You just can't have both.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:08 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:That's fair.
I'd say inconsistent instead of ineffective. He had a 5 steal game earlier this year, and handled himself pretty well against sabonis last night.
One of my favorite parts from last night was how well he defended Sabonis. Not sure what the #s would show, but I felt like he did better or at least as good as Adams did, so that was very encouraging.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:12 am to LSU Fan 90812
the more I think about it, the more I think Atlanta is the trading partner. I think any one of their SFs would be helpful, and they really can't continue to play all 3. They already have Bogdanovich coming off the bench.
Bledsoe and whomever to make salaries work and a pick for Huerter/Hunter/Reddish and Gallinari. I think they most want to do Huerter. And Gallinari is barely playing.
ATL doesn't need all three SFs. They do need a stopper on defense.
That's my trade.
Bledsoe and whomever to make salaries work and a pick for Huerter/Hunter/Reddish and Gallinari. I think they most want to do Huerter. And Gallinari is barely playing.
ATL doesn't need all three SFs. They do need a stopper on defense.
That's my trade.
Posted on 1/5/21 at 11:13 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Last season Zion shot .744 within 3 feet.
.744 x 2 = 1.488 points per shot
an equivalent 3 point percentage to equal 1.488 points per shot:
.496 x 3 = 1.488
For this to be truly accurate we would honestly need to filter out the wide open fastbreak points, lobs, offensive boards, cutting, and other non iso half court stuff that skews the number.
And my guess would be that the number you come up with would be notably lower than 74%. For instance it’s not a clean breakdown, but last year Zion shot 54% on driving layups, 48% on layups in general. Of course that doesn’t split off those that were actual drives or were simply Kobe passes from some guard that he cleaned up, or offensive boards. But I think what we would want to know is what is Zion’s driving/iso/interior half court efficiency?
This post was edited on 1/5/21 at 11:17 am
Page 3 of 7
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News