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re: Shams: Pels one of teams interested in Beal
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
Zion is close, but not quite that good yet. Almost certainly next season as his game rounds out.
Paul George did not outplay Beal this season. Curry and Klay basically didnt play. Beal arguably outplayed Dame this season. He did outplay Luka. Jokic started really slow but came on very well so I can argue in favor of him.
The rest I could accept but you would be hard pressed to add too many other players ahead of him from there(Booker is one I would add off the top of my head). And I would argue when put him on a better squad his star will only shine brighter.
Not many players can drop 50 on a whim when he is the opposing teams entire defensive focus. Give Beal the gravity of Ingram and Zion pulling defenders away from him and you are talking about three players that will just elevate their games and wreck defenses.
As good as Jrue is overall because of his elite defense, we saw what happened when he was in that position at the start of the season being asked to be the man and when defenses adjusted in kind. Which isn’t to dog Jrue, because, like I said, you can easily build a championship squad with him, but to speak to what Beal is capable of doing on a horrible team.
Paul George did not outplay Beal this season. Curry and Klay basically didnt play. Beal arguably outplayed Dame this season. He did outplay Luka. Jokic started really slow but came on very well so I can argue in favor of him.
The rest I could accept but you would be hard pressed to add too many other players ahead of him from there(Booker is one I would add off the top of my head). And I would argue when put him on a better squad his star will only shine brighter.
Not many players can drop 50 on a whim when he is the opposing teams entire defensive focus. Give Beal the gravity of Ingram and Zion pulling defenders away from him and you are talking about three players that will just elevate their games and wreck defenses.
As good as Jrue is overall because of his elite defense, we saw what happened when he was in that position at the start of the season being asked to be the man and when defenses adjusted in kind. Which isn’t to dog Jrue, because, like I said, you can easily build a championship squad with him, but to speak to what Beal is capable of doing on a horrible team.
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 10:35 am
2
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:35 am to Bronc
quote:
Paul George did not outplay Beal this season.
you did not say "this season" and if you did, it makes your argument worthless. nobody gives a frick that beal may have slipped into the top 10 for 2020 when lots of clearly-better players were hurt (KD, George, Zion, Curry, Klay, etc).
look at beal's career. he is good but he's not THAT good. his shooting is also severely overrated. and worse, he's basically 27 already.
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:40 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you did not say "this season" and if you did, it makes your argument worthless. nobody gives a frick that beal may have slipped into the top 10 for 2020 when lots of clearly-better players were hurt (KD, George, Zion, Curry, Klay, etc).
Under what circumstances do you determine top ten exactly if not the most recent output you have to measure? Beal played like a borderline top 10 player this season and in the right circumstance projects to stay around there as he enters his prime(and that is key, most guys you list are on the back side of their primes).
There is no guarantee Paul George EVER plays as good as he does going on 30 with his body severely beat up and 31-32 next season. That KD comes back like Warriors/Thunder KD. That Curry at 33 will still be prime Curry.
It seems to me you are basing your list on the best output of these players over the last several seasons, but that is just as open to flawed logic. Over an entire career even more so.
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 10:43 am
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:48 am to Bronc
Bradley Beal is
#2 scoring per game
#5 minutes per game
#17 PER
#16 offensive WS
#11 offensive +/-
Those are the only stats i can find him in the top 20 of the league in on basketball reference for his best year of his career. Im sorry but that isn't a top 10 player. Maybe top 20, probably top 30. He is what i said he was, a high usage fairly efficient player putting up numbers on a bad team. His best trait is he's in his prime and signed up for a few more years.
#2 scoring per game
#5 minutes per game
#17 PER
#16 offensive WS
#11 offensive +/-
Those are the only stats i can find him in the top 20 of the league in on basketball reference for his best year of his career. Im sorry but that isn't a top 10 player. Maybe top 20, probably top 30. He is what i said he was, a high usage fairly efficient player putting up numbers on a bad team. His best trait is he's in his prime and signed up for a few more years.
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 10:50 am
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:51 am to cajun_tiger
Name me 20 better players and post those same categorical stats as well and lets compare
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:55 am to Bronc
Dude I'm not writing a thesis on why Bradley Beal isn't a top 10 player. Prove to me why he is. Also, using the same exact stats isn't fair. Lots of guys impact the game in different ways. I do have a question for you though. What do you think Jrue averages on Washingtons team if he played for them instead of Beal. Beal is a better FT shooter. The rest of the % are neck and neck.
Posted on 6/12/20 at 10:56 am to Bronc
quote:
Name me 20 better players
you have to qualify. do you mean THIS year or currently playing?
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:03 am to Bronc
But to be fair here is my better players
1)Giannis
2)Lebron
3)Anthony Davis
4)Harden
5)Lillard
6)Kawhi
7)Embiid
8)Butler
9)Doncic
10)Gobert
11)Tatum
12)Simmons
13)Jokic
14)KAT
15)
From here you can start to debate Beal to me. I think he falls in this range from here to 25 (imho so does Jrue). This is how well they played this year and taking into account age for someone like KAT who is only 24 and put up awesome numbers, like Beal.
And thats only 2020 otherwise we can add Durant, Curry, and Thompson in that list too
1)Giannis
2)Lebron
3)Anthony Davis
4)Harden
5)Lillard
6)Kawhi
7)Embiid
8)Butler
9)Doncic
10)Gobert
11)Tatum
12)Simmons
13)Jokic
14)KAT
15)
From here you can start to debate Beal to me. I think he falls in this range from here to 25 (imho so does Jrue). This is how well they played this year and taking into account age for someone like KAT who is only 24 and put up awesome numbers, like Beal.
And thats only 2020 otherwise we can add Durant, Curry, and Thompson in that list too
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 11:07 am
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:08 am to cajun_tiger
quote:
Dude I'm not writing a thesis on why Bradley Beal isn't a top 10 player. Prove to me why he is. Also, using the same exact stats isn't fair. Lots of guys impact the game in different ways. I do have a question for you though. What do you think Jrue averages on Washingtons team if he played for them instead of Beal. Beal is a better FT shooter. The rest of the % are neck and neck.
You are the one that said there are 20-30 better players, so name them. I already went through someone’s list and said where I think he slots. Which is right around the border of top ten based on recent performances.
We already saw what Jrue would average offensively, it wouldn’t be Beal.
Remember we tried that, the whole “Jrue is a sleeper all star/superstar and this is HIS team, we will play through him,” all with a better supporting cast, and Jrue struggled until the team refocused
I like Jrue a lot for what he does, Like i said I am just as interested in a Beal/Jrue combo or a Jrue Turner/Ingram/Lonzo/Zion combo(maybe slightly more so) but if you are about to argue Jrue could drop 50 at will on a bad team and average 30ppg on that Washington team, nah. And frankly, as it would just be human nature, his defensive effort would probably drop and Certainly his numbers as his cast would suck and affect his capacity and reputation.
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 11:09 am
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:11 am to Bronc
I said not top 10, maybe top 20 probably top 30. I feel like my post above backs that up
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:11 am to Bronc
quote:
Not many players can drop 50 on a whim when he is the opposing teams entire defensive focus
He scored 40+ 10 times this year. His team was 1-9 in those games.
Lots of teams will attack a bad team with a really good player, by letting that player go off individually, while completely shutting down everyone else.
quote:
Beal arguably outplayed Dame this season
By comparison, Lillard's team is 8-6 the last two years when he scores 40+
quote:
but to speak to what Beal is capable of doing on a horrible team.
There are lots of guys that can go rack up stats on crappy teams, and that being said, i think Bradley Beal is a really good player and would love to have him.
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:30 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
There are lots of guys that can go rack up stats on crappy teams, and that being said, i think Bradley Beal is a really good player and would love to have him.
People always say this but the list of players that actually do so in recent memory is incredibly thin. And the ones that are doing it tend to be even better when getting onto good teams and haven’t been doing it like Beal.
As to his team’s w/l percentage when he goes off.
Let’s dig into that.
Guy didnt just drop 40+ against scrubs, he dropped 42 on Utah shooting above 50% and 40% on threes. 10 Assists.
Dropped 55 and 47 against Milwaukee. On Combined 50% shooting
Against Boston and Houston, 60% and 70% shooting respectively.
42 on Orlando’s elite defense shooting 53%.
He didn’t beat up on scrubs, he had out of his mind games against some of the best competition in the league. And if you say that is a strategy, not very many other great players on bad teams could pull it off. In fact no one did last season.
The difference is, and has always been, you can be a top 10 player but if the rest of your team is bottom tier you are going to struggle. When Dame scores 40 it allows his really good supporting cast to feast, when Beal scores 50 he still needs a pitiful supporting cast to Have an incredible night to have a chance.
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 11:32 am
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:42 am to TeddyPadillac
To be fair... The talent between Portland and Washington is massive since they blew up the team. I won’t question Beal’s ability to score regardless how good his team is. He has enough of a sample size throughout his entire career to respect his scoring ability. He’s been in winning squads as well as lottery squads. I won’t criticize Beal for the Wizard’s mismanagement. Beal is a good player that a lot of teams covet.
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:48 am to cajun_tiger
quote:I think you have to as we would not be trading for Beal for this season only or a season whereby stars are expected to be out.
And thats only 2020 otherwise we can add Durant, Curry, and Thompson in that list too
Posted on 6/12/20 at 11:50 am to Bronc
quote:
The difference is, and has always been, you can be a top 10 player but if the rest of your team is bottom tier you are going to struggle. When Dame scores 40 it allows his really good supporting cast to feast, when Beal scores 50 he still needs a pitiful supporting cast to Have an incredible night to have a chance.
the problem is beal is only that type of player when his teams suck. look at his stats every year until last year (he ain't THAT good)
also, without looking, how may 40% 3 seasons do you think he's had?
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 11:51 am
Posted on 6/12/20 at 12:12 pm to SlowFlowPro
He’s 26, not 30.
A player’s peak is typically Between 26-29, so Beal is just entering his.
It seems to me you are just looking for angles to hit him with, even if it means ignoring certain contexts.
That argument is the equivalent of claiming James Harden ain’t shite because at 22 and 23 he was the third best player on his team and only averaging 25ppg(still hasn’t had a single 40% three point shooting season). Dismissing his season at age 26 as a fluke, even though any reasonable person recognizes he was entering his prime. And that Harden at 26 had Pat Beverly, prime Ariza, and Capella only getting him to .500 basketball and getting nearly swept in the first round. I am not calling Beal Harden, but simply illustrating the absurdity of this line of reasoning.
His age 27 season Harden got D’Antoni and took off.
Might be that Griffin sees some untapped potential of a budding superstar as well.
A player’s peak is typically Between 26-29, so Beal is just entering his.
It seems to me you are just looking for angles to hit him with, even if it means ignoring certain contexts.
That argument is the equivalent of claiming James Harden ain’t shite because at 22 and 23 he was the third best player on his team and only averaging 25ppg(still hasn’t had a single 40% three point shooting season). Dismissing his season at age 26 as a fluke, even though any reasonable person recognizes he was entering his prime. And that Harden at 26 had Pat Beverly, prime Ariza, and Capella only getting him to .500 basketball and getting nearly swept in the first round. I am not calling Beal Harden, but simply illustrating the absurdity of this line of reasoning.
His age 27 season Harden got D’Antoni and took off.
Might be that Griffin sees some untapped potential of a budding superstar as well.
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 12:16 pm
Posted on 6/12/20 at 12:36 pm to Bronc
quote:
He’s 26, not 30.
he's effectively 27. if he ever plays for us, he will be older than 26
quote:
A player’s peak is typically Between 26-29, so Beal is just entering his
which means he only has 2 years left of play in the 2017 range (on a non-terrible team)
quote:
Might be that Griffin sees some untapped potential of a budding superstar as well.
he's nowhere close to a superstar. he's much closer to "3rd best guy on a title team"
quote:
It seems to me you are just looking for angles to hit him with,
if we could get him as a salary dump, i'd be all for it
he's going to be VERY expensive and he's simply not worth it. if we're willing to deal on that level, we need Turner, not Beal
on a good team Beal is a 20-22 5-5- guy who isn't as good of a shooter as his rep indicates (which has been with him since his draft time)
*ETA: and you have 3, maybe 4 years of THAT level left
This post was edited on 6/12/20 at 12:37 pm
Posted on 6/12/20 at 12:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
Beal’s net cost is not going to be that high because of how coveted he is.
That is the trick great organizations understand. Once you get into that echelon of being able to trade for superstars While having other superstars, barring major mismanagement, you will be able to stay in those discussions because you now have the asset pool to win at the table and your team makes players look even better so even your role players sell better when you put them on the market.
Beal will cost a lot, he will also sell for a lot. Unlike players we have chased in the past.
I’ve said a lot I am all for the Turner route, for making a choice on Jrue based on what his intentions and expectations are for his post 30 contract coming up. But I see the potential in Beal as well. You are grossly undervaluing him if you think he comes here and plays third fiddle in the hierarchy. He would be the alpha scorer for the next few seasons as Zion and Ingram continue to develop. Beal would destroy defenses with Zion and Ingram with their gravity pulling defenders away from him, and vice versa.
That is the trick great organizations understand. Once you get into that echelon of being able to trade for superstars While having other superstars, barring major mismanagement, you will be able to stay in those discussions because you now have the asset pool to win at the table and your team makes players look even better so even your role players sell better when you put them on the market.
Beal will cost a lot, he will also sell for a lot. Unlike players we have chased in the past.
I’ve said a lot I am all for the Turner route, for making a choice on Jrue based on what his intentions and expectations are for his post 30 contract coming up. But I see the potential in Beal as well. You are grossly undervaluing him if you think he comes here and plays third fiddle in the hierarchy. He would be the alpha scorer for the next few seasons as Zion and Ingram continue to develop. Beal would destroy defenses with Zion and Ingram with their gravity pulling defenders away from him, and vice versa.
Posted on 6/12/20 at 1:05 pm to Bronc
quote:
You are grossly undervaluing him if you think he comes here and plays third fiddle in the hierarchy.
he may be 4th
Zion is clearly better, Ingram is likely better, and then you have Ball/Jrue. Beal is clearly better than Ball but Ball runs the team as the point and seems to have an in with Zion. Jrue is in the same tier as Beal and has been the leader of this team for some time.
quote:
He would be the alpha scorer for the next few seasons
Ingram and Zion are the alpha and beta
go look at Ingram's 3rd years v. Beal's 3rd. hell look at his 3rd year v. ANY year of Beal's other than 20
quote:
Beal would destroy defenses with Zion and Ingram with their gravity pulling defenders away from him
the problem is, unless there has been something fricky going on, he hasn't been a good enough 3 point shooter to pay #1 guy money for him to just shoot 3s. he is EXTREMELY over-valued and will cost WAY too much
Posted on 6/12/20 at 2:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Zion is clearly better, Ingram is likely better, and then you have Ball/Jrue. Beal is clearly better than Ball but Ball runs the team as the point and seems to have an in with Zion. Jrue is in the same tier as Beal and has been the leader of this team for some time.
We aren't getting Beal, and still having Ball and Jrue. One of them has to go, and i've already mentioned why Washington wouldn't be interested in Jrue. The only teams that would are teams that want to win a championship now.
Zion doesn't need to be given the ball to score. He scores no matter what he does. He and Jrue have no problem conceding to Ingram and Beal. While i obviously want Zion to be a focal point of the offense, he could come down the court on 10 possessions and not have anyone pass him the ball and still play a big part in every bucket we make.
One of the biggest jumps in Beals game this year was scoring. He went from scoring 23ppg in '17 and '18, to 30ppg in '20, and he only went from taking 8.3FGA to 10.4FGA. That's an impressive jump by only taking 2 more shots. What he did was nearly double his FTA, going from 4.4 to 8 per game. That is a stat i love to see, and why i would love to have him. Ingram and Jrue already get to the line at a great rate, and Zion is going to be in a different world when it comes to that. When you have 4 guys on the court with the ability to take their man off the dribble and get to the paint and draw fouls, you're going to win a lot of games. As long as we are moving the ball and not playing 1 on 1 everywhere, the lack of 3 point shooting won't matter that much when you have guys that are that elite at getting to the rim.
Ingram and Beal would be two great scoring options that we can stagger minutes with as best we can, always having an elite scorer on the floor. That is the biggest appeal to me right there, along with his ability to get to the line.
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