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re: Roster construction next year - way too early look
Posted on 10/10/22 at 2:50 pm to Dantheman504
Posted on 10/10/22 at 2:50 pm to Dantheman504
It’s very likely that Jose would play over Kira even if he was healthy.
He’s not healthy, and when he was healthy he never really played at above replacement level.
He’s not healthy, and when he was healthy he never really played at above replacement level.
2
Posted on 10/10/22 at 2:52 pm to TeddyPadillac
So everyone gets a pass for missing time, having bad coaches, having shitty team chemistry, and being a rookie/ young player who is developing EXCEPT Kira?
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 3:02 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 2:56 pm to Epic Cajun
Yes that’s a given. I’ve never argued that.
To say Kira can’t be a serviceable 5th-6th option at guard for 4-7 mil a year is what I have an issue with.
Some people would be cool with keeping Jaxson Hayes for 12 mil a year to be 3rd string PF behind Nance and a possible future MVP but it’s wasting money to keep Kira as our 3rd PG/SG for half the price.
To say Kira can’t be a serviceable 5th-6th option at guard for 4-7 mil a year is what I have an issue with.
Some people would be cool with keeping Jaxson Hayes for 12 mil a year to be 3rd string PF behind Nance and a possible future MVP but it’s wasting money to keep Kira as our 3rd PG/SG for half the price.
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 2:57 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:07 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Yes that’s a given. I’ve never argued that.
To say Kira can’t be a serviceable 5th-6th option at guard for 4-7 mil a year is what I have an issue with.
Some people would be cool keeping Jaxson Hayes for 12 mil a year to be 3rd string PF behind Nance and a possible future MVP but it’s wasting money to keep Kira as our 3rd PG/SG for half the price.
He could possibly be the 5th or 6th guard, but IMO that player should either be on a minimum contract, or a rookie contract. I don't know that you accept an option at 5.7 mil for a player that isn't even an every night player.
The team is structured in a manner where we may play a decent amount of time with only one "guard" on the court at times, and he has the following players above him in that role:
CJ
Jose
Graham
Dyson (for defensive purposes)
I just don't see how he would get minutes, he would probably rather go somewhere that has some minutes for him, too.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:19 pm to Epic Cajun
Well if Dyson can find his shot and Jose continues to get better then we don’t need Grahams 12 mil a year at all. We already don’t really need Hayes and the 8-12 mil he will get.
If Kira comes in and gives useful minutes I can easily see us valuing his few minutes for 6 mil a year over Grahams reduced minutes for 12 mil a year.
GT is making 5 mil a year and even that barely hurts us with the salary cap increasing and he isn’t even playable.
We have discussed not needing/ wanting Graham and Hayes salaries but the opinion that Kira for 6 mil could hurt us/ limit options is weird.
If Kira comes in and gives useful minutes I can easily see us valuing his few minutes for 6 mil a year over Grahams reduced minutes for 12 mil a year.
GT is making 5 mil a year and even that barely hurts us with the salary cap increasing and he isn’t even playable.
We have discussed not needing/ wanting Graham and Hayes salaries but the opinion that Kira for 6 mil could hurt us/ limit options is weird.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:23 pm to Epic Cajun
I just hope he can get on the damn court so this can all be settled. If I’m wrong then it is what it is and I’ll admit I’m wrong.
But until then people are acting likes it’s crazy to think the projected lottery pick that showed flashes of being good at 18-19 years old can’t come in and be serviceable.
But until then people are acting likes it’s crazy to think the projected lottery pick that showed flashes of being good at 18-19 years old can’t come in and be serviceable.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:33 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
If Kira comes in and gives useful minutes I can easily see us valuing his few minutes for 6 mil a year over Grahams reduced minutes for 12 mil a year.
You aren't thinking about fit enough though. The strengths Kira was bringing when he was playing his best were solid defense with his ball hawking skills, and ball control with a very good Assist to Turnover ratio. Jose does both of those things better than Kira ever did and maybe ever will. You keep asking why everyone is so down on him, it's because he got Wally Pipped by Jose.
If Kira is the 3rd string PG making $5 million a year AND you dump Graham's shooting to free up salary to keep Kira, have you really improved? I don't think that answer is always No, but I think most of the times No is the answer and there are only a few scenarios where I can see it working out.
There are a lot of people afraid of a short Jose/Kira back court, I personally want to see Jose's aggressive point of attack defense paired with Kira's ball hawking skills. Throw Trey and Dyson out there and maybe you don't need as many shooters because it will be nothing but steals and layups. But on the surface Graham or another shooter seems more valuable to the team the Kira.
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:38 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Being tight on salaries is more of the reason he can be a positive asset
as i pointed out before, we aren't looking to make trades where we send out $17M and get back $17M.
The only reason Kira would be extended and traded is if we could get an actual asset for dumping him, even a 2nd round pick. Would the Spurs send us a 2nd round pick to take Kira into salary space? I don't know, maybe.
If you can't do that, and you keep him, then you're paying your 12th or 13th best player $6M/yr while you're likely just barely over the tax.
quote:
He has only played 78 games. That’s 1 rookie season. And you can’t even call it that because look at his coaches/ teammates during that time.
Both coaches felt he couldn't handle on ball duties.
He only played in 54 games his rookie year, on a crappy team. There's a reason for that. You didn't see that from other rookies unless they were hurt.
quote:
It’s more hypocrisy. Jaxson looked worse than Kira did at that time other than a few flashy dunks. Kira’s biggest issue was his long range shot wasn’t falling and the speed of the game was tough for him because of his speed.
Is anyone clamoring to resign Jaxson for even MLE money?
And Jaxon's highest of highs are much higher than Kira's, and so is his potential.
You act like we don't talk about Jaxson negatively. Jaxson likely isn't getting traded unless someone wants to absorb his contract and give us a 2nd round pick or something, just like Kira. If he isn't traded, he'll go into RFA and we likely wouldn't resign him.
quote:
That’s 2 things you don’t really knock any rookies for. We didn’t do it for Herb, we don’t do it for DD, we didn’t do it when Jose started plying but all of the sudden Kira is the exception? Why? Because he hasn’t been on the court and we haven’t seen him????
what exception?
Are you asking why people haven't been harder on Herb in his rookie year, or Jose? Good luck finding that person on this planet that wants to talk about either of them having anything but a phenomenal rookie season, and it didn't take the playoffs to convince Pelicans fans, just the rest of the NBA. Of course they both have things to work on, but they had a positive impact on the game b/c of their defensive intensity, despite the holes in their game offensively. At no point did Kira impact games like either Herb or Jose did, and despite the terrible shooting from Dyson, you can see the positive impact he had on just his first meaningless preseason game b/c of his defense.
quote:
And again he’s younger than all those guys.
He played for 2 years in college, unlike most rookies his age. He's like 6 months younger than Tyrese Maxey, who we should have drafted.
i honestly don't like being so negative about Kira, b/c he seems like a good kid and I do think he can stay in the league for a long time if he improves his shooting and more importantly his confidence in himself, but it's hard to ignore the reality of the situation.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:43 pm to TigerinATL
Graham is only useful for us if he is making his shots. I think he can but it’s still not set in stone. Where Graham becomes more valuable is how he has been dishing the ball and not taking bad shots.
My opinion is that we don’t need Grahams shooting anymore. We definitely wouldn’t need him if Jose is making shots, Trey is on the court, and Kira can make his floaters/ break down the defense with his speed.
All the things Kira does creates shooting opportunities. If he can also make shots himself and the game actually slowed down for him….. we’ve got something there.
I already made the thread about our shooting last year and who took all the shots. We needed Graham last year and Trey/ CJ weren’t close to the top. If Kira can expose defenses and get guys open shots I’d rather him doing that and passing to BI, Trey, CJ, etcc for 6 mil a year > Graham taking those shots for 12 mil a year.
My opinion is that we don’t need Grahams shooting anymore. We definitely wouldn’t need him if Jose is making shots, Trey is on the court, and Kira can make his floaters/ break down the defense with his speed.
All the things Kira does creates shooting opportunities. If he can also make shots himself and the game actually slowed down for him….. we’ve got something there.
I already made the thread about our shooting last year and who took all the shots. We needed Graham last year and Trey/ CJ weren’t close to the top. If Kira can expose defenses and get guys open shots I’d rather him doing that and passing to BI, Trey, CJ, etcc for 6 mil a year > Graham taking those shots for 12 mil a year.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:45 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
We have discussed not needing/ wanting Graham and Hayes salaries but the opinion that Kira for 6 mil could hurt us/ limit options is weird.
we are talking about next year. Not this year.
Reread my post about the salaries for next year.
My whole point is i'm not going to be a tax team next year b/c of Kira Lewis. If we can stay under the tax and keep Kira b/c he showed some promise this year, then i'm all for it, but i don't think that's something that can be easily done while at least staying the same or getting better as a team on paper. Meaning, i'm not dumping DG just so i can keep Kira and have Naji/Kira take those minutes. We don't get better by doing that, even if it does keep us under the tax.
and stop saying Jaxson is going to get 10-12M. I guarantee it won't be from us if someone is dumb enough to give him that. I'd give it <10% chance that Jax is on this team next year.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:46 pm to TeddyPadillac
The fact that you aren’t positive a team would trade a 2nd round pick for Kira is absolutely hilarious.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:50 pm to TeddyPadillac
I said 8-12 mil and someone will do it.
It’s not about simply dumping DG. Do we really think he has a spot on this roster long term? We can sign Kira to a cheaper deal and he can at least come in be serviceable talent for a few years. Graham already isn’t one of our main pieces so if we have enough offensive firepower without him (I think we do) then it’s simply saving 5+ mil to spend somewhere else and adding another passer/ spacer to the lineup.
It’s not about simply dumping DG. Do we really think he has a spot on this roster long term? We can sign Kira to a cheaper deal and he can at least come in be serviceable talent for a few years. Graham already isn’t one of our main pieces so if we have enough offensive firepower without him (I think we do) then it’s simply saving 5+ mil to spend somewhere else and adding another passer/ spacer to the lineup.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:54 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
The fact that you aren’t positive a team would trade a 2nd round pick for Kira is absolutely hilarious.
It's real easy to just say this would happen or not. Give me a realistic situation where someone absorbs his contract or sends us a worthless expiring AND gives us a 2nd.
First off, there aren't many teams that can absorb a $5M contract, in fact that list is just the Spurs and Pacers.
Now there are other teams that have expiring players that they could swap for Kira, but are they going to do that and give us a 2nd?
Who's looking for a backup pg that hasn't shown he's capable of being a backup pg and are willing to give up an asset for that?
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:54 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
stop saying Jaxson is going to get 10-12M. I guarantee it won't be from us if someone is dumb enough to give him that. I'd give it <10% chance that Jax is on this team next year.
I think you're wrong about this. Hayes has a $9 million QO. That means that even if RFA kills his market and he gets no offers like Hart, you still have to offer him enough that he doesn't just sign the QO and become a UFA the next year.
Maybe 1/$9 is better than 4/$40 for Hayes, but you probably need to give him a multiyear deal averaging at least $10 to get him to sign, especially if it's a team friendly construction like Hart's contract.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:56 pm to Dantheman504
We are going to replace Temple next year with Liddell’s contract so that will save a few mil already.
Wouldn’t it be smarter to keep Kira for cheaper and draft shooters on rookie contracts > letting the cheaper passer/ spacer go and keeping the somewhat unnecessary 12 mil contract that can be replaced for rookies?
Our argument is keeping 1 guy for 5 mil and keeping 1 guy for 12 mil both of which can be replaced for cheaper talent and aren’t exactly necessary. I’d rather keep the guy for 5 mil that can continue to get better. Graham is Graham at 27 y/o. That’s not a knock on him it just is what it is.
Wouldn’t it be smarter to keep Kira for cheaper and draft shooters on rookie contracts > letting the cheaper passer/ spacer go and keeping the somewhat unnecessary 12 mil contract that can be replaced for rookies?
Our argument is keeping 1 guy for 5 mil and keeping 1 guy for 12 mil both of which can be replaced for cheaper talent and aren’t exactly necessary. I’d rather keep the guy for 5 mil that can continue to get better. Graham is Graham at 27 y/o. That’s not a knock on him it just is what it is.
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 3:57 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 3:59 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
I said 8-12 mil and someone will do it.
No. they won't.
Jaxson Hayes is not getting Bobby Portis money unless he does something spectacular this season. And news flash, he simply won't b/c he just doesn't give a shite enough about his craft to get better where he needs to. He's lazy in his work off the court, and if you really watch him he's lazy on the court as well.
quote:
Graham already isn’t one of our main pieces so if we have enough offensive firepower without him (I think we do) then it’s simply saving 5+ mil to spend somewhere else and adding another passer/ spacer to the lineup.
Again, go look at the numbers for salaries next year that i posted? You don't just save $5M off this year salaries and then get to spend it next year.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 4:07 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:heres the deal and it couldnt be simpler
My whole point is i'm not going to be a tax team next year b/c of Kira Lewis. If we can stay under the tax and keep Kira b/c he showed some promise this year, then i'm all for it, but i don't think that's something that can be easily done while at least staying the same or getting better as a team on paper.
1) without hayes, and keeping everyone else, they will be 7MM over the tax line
2) they can get below the tax by cutting that 7MM from next years' roster easily by declining lewis and waiving temple. again, no hayes
3) if they decide to keep hayes (and he accepts the offer), there will have to be other cuts...graham would have to go IN ADDITION to lewis & temple, likely with a decent draft asset
Posted on 10/10/22 at 4:09 pm to TeddyPadillac
Temple makes 5 mil. Liddell will make 2 mil max a year. That’s an extra 3 mil next year/ going forward from our current salary. Kira already is making 4 mil and his option is 1.7 mil more. So use that same money to give him the extra 2 mil from Temple. Re-signing Kira doesn’t hurt us at all.
Keeping Graham for 12 mil a year while he isn’t necessarily needed and other players are improving does hurt us more than it helps us.
We don’t have anymore roster spots. That would be 15 people. We aren’t getting any new players or even really creating much space by dumping Naji or Kira’s current salary anyway. The only way that happens is if we get rid of Graham/ Hayes.
Even then we would most likely be dumping Graham/ Hayes to pay our current players Trey/ Herb/ Jose and not to add more bigger contract players.
Kira won’t change that because he already counts for 4 mil and we are talking about giving him 2 more mil. Keeping Graham and Hayes for their contracts while they won’t be utilized to the fullest would be dumb. You could say that Kira for 5-6 mil a year could at least turn into a decent trade asset and be a nice spark in case someone gets hurt.
Keeping Graham for 12 mil a year while he isn’t necessarily needed and other players are improving does hurt us more than it helps us.
We don’t have anymore roster spots. That would be 15 people. We aren’t getting any new players or even really creating much space by dumping Naji or Kira’s current salary anyway. The only way that happens is if we get rid of Graham/ Hayes.
Even then we would most likely be dumping Graham/ Hayes to pay our current players Trey/ Herb/ Jose and not to add more bigger contract players.
Kira won’t change that because he already counts for 4 mil and we are talking about giving him 2 more mil. Keeping Graham and Hayes for their contracts while they won’t be utilized to the fullest would be dumb. You could say that Kira for 5-6 mil a year could at least turn into a decent trade asset and be a nice spark in case someone gets hurt.
This post was edited on 10/10/22 at 4:35 pm
Posted on 10/10/22 at 7:12 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Why is everyone so low on Kira? Their ONLY reason is because we haven’t seen him in 2 years. None of y’all are talking about Zion like that. Obviously they are different players but the hypocrisy is real.
Kira wasn't at 27 ppg
We know Zion can be one of best scorers in the NBA if healthy.
Kira...Jose has good advanced stats and is a good player.
Age and potential aren't same thing.
Posted on 10/10/22 at 8:29 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
I think you're wrong about this. Hayes has a $9 million QO. That means that even if RFA kills his market and he gets no offers like Hart, you still have to offer him enough that he doesn't just sign the QO and become a UFA the next year
That’s assuming we offer him the QO, which we can’t do until after the finals are over this year. Unless you want to pay him $9M next year, there’s no reason to give him the QO and let him be a RFA. Just let him be a UFA.
Again, who the hell is paying him Bobby Portis money, or even Larry Nance money? Why would we offer him the QO if his going rate is more around $5M, like Jalen Smith.
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