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re: Objectively, should we be 1-10?
Posted on 11/10/21 at 5:29 am to Bronc
Posted on 11/10/21 at 5:29 am to Bronc
This is an odd flex.
Most posters are casual and only post from time to time. There is nothing wrong with that. Also, many are actually at the games while they are being played. Do you expect them to post on here while they are there?
Most posters are casual and only post from time to time. There is nothing wrong with that. Also, many are actually at the games while they are being played. Do you expect them to post on here while they are there?
1
Posted on 11/10/21 at 5:37 am to brmark70816
No one is flexing, but the low IQ takes from yesterday sunshine pumping a 1-10 team on the third year of a rebuild seem to have a common theme, in that they keep coming from people(one exception) that don’t watch games.
And if you aren’t watching the games, don’t sit here and try and call out the fandom of those that actually are, or act like your takes aren’t literally coming from a place of ignorance, when you aren’t actually watching the team.
And if you aren’t watching the games, don’t sit here and try and call out the fandom of those that actually are, or act like your takes aren’t literally coming from a place of ignorance, when you aren’t actually watching the team.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 6:50 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
my man.
we are not in the same part of the rebuild as OKC and Houston are.
What part of that aren't you understanding?
Neither of them have a 6 year man in BI that's made an all-star, or Zion. Even with them healthy, we aren't above .500, and that's whats pathetic.
They played this season to see what our record is with both of them healthy?
quote:
We used to, and we've got nothing to show for it so far.
2 picks have been used from the AD and Jrue trades, the one in 2019 and the one traded to Memphis. We have plenty left.
quote:
Everyone is always on the trade block. We simply didn't want to give up what they were asking.
So we should just throw 2-3 extra picks out to get a player to pay a higher price because a team doesn't want to trade them at that point we're calling?
quote:
Graham replaced Lonzo
NAW replaced Lonzo's role. Graham was added.
quote:
don't think so, but i'm not CBA expert.
It can be done, you just have to word the language correctly. It's how Lakers could technically trade their 2026 pick, they just have to put language into the trade that they're trading that pick if it doesn't convey to Pels. It's complicated to do because teams are gambling on when it will actually convey, but it's doable. I believe Bulls did something like this for the Derozen trade.
quote:
showed you what our best offer is
Our best offer includes Ingram, which Ingram with picks gets you anybody in the league.
quote:
NAW is not fetching a 1st, not even a late 1st.
Kira sure as hell ain't fetching a 1st
All 3 would fetch a 1st rounder, I don't know how you can think otherwise.
quote:
If Graham cost a 1st, then Lonzo should have
Graham cost a lottery protected 1st that will probably end up 2 2nds, and that was to get Charlotte not to match the offer, which was stated they would.
quote:
The DeRozan trade doesn't happen without us
They traded enough salary to Spurs to cover Derozen's money (Aminu and Young for total of 24 million sent out), that trade had absolutely nothing to do with us or what we took back.
Also, Sato is a good role player, if he's allowed to play in the role he's comfortable with. We haven't had the luxury of being able to do that yet this season because of injuries.
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 7:02 am
Posted on 11/10/21 at 6:57 am to Bronc
Nobody is sunshine pumping, we're just trying to get you to lower your expectations. Every doom and gloom guy here right now believes we should be 10-1 right now and anything less is a failure, then want to lay everything at Griffs feet like we're not having to play role players in spots they're not comfortable with due to our 2 major stars being injured.
This is exactly what a team without its best 2 players looks like. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would expect anything different.
This is exactly what a team without its best 2 players looks like. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would expect anything different.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 7:49 am to Soggymoss
quote:
2 picks have been used from the AD and Jrue trades, the one in 2019 and the one traded to Memphis. We have plenty left.
We traded one to OKC (Denver) just so they would take all the salary from the Jrue trade so we could keep Adams and not be a tax team, then we had to use the one we gave to Memphis to get rid of Adams.
Lonzo left for nothing.
Hopefully Hart helps us get something other than 2 2nds.
#4 hasn't produced in year 3 now.
#13 doesn't look like anything more than a backup at best.
we unnecessarily gave a 1st to sign a FA.
Yes assets have been wasted.
quote:
So we should just throw 2-3 extra picks out to get a player to pay a higher price because a team doesn't want to trade them at that point we're calling?
YES!
you offer NAW and a 1st for Brogdon and they say they want 2 firsts, then give them an extra first. who cares if the player you are getting is going to make a big difference. Brogdon and pretty much everyone from Indy has been rumored to be available for a year and a half.
quote:
NAW replaced Lonzo's role. Graham was added.
bruh. NAW was already on the team as a backup. that's his role. Graham replaced Lonzo. We didn't add anything we didn't already have.
quote:
It can be done, you just have to word the language correctly. It's how Lakers could technically trade their 2026 pick, they just have to put language into the trade that they're trading that pick if it doesn't convey to Pels. It's complicated to do because teams are gambling on when it will actually convey, but it's doable. I believe Bulls did something like this for the Derozen trade.
It can't.
the bulls gave the Spurs a protected '25 first. They own their '24, '23 is going to Orlando, they own their '22 which can't be traded until after the draft.
quote:
Our best offer includes Ingram, which Ingram with picks gets you anybody in the league.
That would be called blowing it up.
Who would you trade BI for? the point of us having all the assets was so we could add anyone we wanted and not have to include BI.
quote:
All 3 would fetch a 1st rounder, I don't know how you can think otherwise.
no. they wouldn't, and your fandom is clouding your judgement.
quote:
Graham cost a lottery protected 1st that will probably end up 2 2nds, and that was to get Charlotte not to match the offer, which was stated they would.
They were never going to match. Call their bluff. They resigned Rozier, they have Lamelo, they drafted Bouknight, what would make you think they would want to pay a backup that money when they want to give more minutes to Lamelo and their new draft pick?
And we shouldn't be this shitty, so that top 14 protected pick should have been assumed to be conveyed b/c we should be in a position to fight for the playoffs this year.
quote:
They traded enough salary to Spurs to cover Derozen's money (Aminu and Young for total of 24 million sent out), that trade had absolutely nothing to do with us or what we took back.
When you make a S&T, it means you become hard capped, and you cannot go over that number, which is $143M.
Bulls are at $132M right now. Sure was nice of us to take back $10M Sato from them huh. also kept them just under the tax line. what a nice gesture by us, and all we asked for was a worthless 2nd round pick.
quote:
Also, Sato is a good role player,
no he isn't, and the only reason we took him was so that we could include his $10M expiring in a trade this year b/c we don't have any high salary players to move other than Sato and Hart.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:12 am to Soggymoss
quote:
Every doom and gloom guy here right now believes we should be 10-1 right now and anything less is a failure
I dont think a single poster in here believes that.
What everyone has been pushing back on with you in particular is the way in which you try and twist and gaslight valid criticism and frustrations.
We have drafted poorly, we have mismanaged every free agency, the pieces we have are not all that improved on net from what we fielded last season that struggled even when healthy.
If anything, it's you that have been pumping up unrealistic expectations. Most of us see a .500ish team that is propped up by basically one player, the one player gifted to us, and beyond that you have two players in optimal roles on a good team and then a bunch of guys doing too much or are just scrubs. And we see no justification for that given the embarrassment of riches afforded to this franchise to be better and all the steps to the plate we've had in the draft.
I mean even if Zion makes it back mid December, we are one more injury away from major problems. Graham missed 15 games last season, Jonas is getting absolutely beat up every night, BI is already getting banged up, and we simply do not have the depth to take even blows like that.
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 8:25 am
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:29 am to Bronc
Depth , specifically guard depth, is a serious problem .
This is a guards league and we have arguably the worst crop of guards in the league for the 2nd year in a row .
It’s becoming more apparent to me that they have reset the clock on the “re-build” . They view this as year one , whereas we as fans view it as year 3 . Some may argue this is year 10 .
This is a guards league and we have arguably the worst crop of guards in the league for the 2nd year in a row .
It’s becoming more apparent to me that they have reset the clock on the “re-build” . They view this as year one , whereas we as fans view it as year 3 . Some may argue this is year 10 .
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:35 am to Bronc
quote:
We have drafted poorly
Everyone here says that we need to get another star through the draft, that is universally agreed upon. You don't get that by drafting low ceiling high floor guys, you get them by drafting high ceiling low floor guys. More often than not it doesn't work. Not every pick will be a hit.
quote:
Most of us see a .500ish team that is propped up by basically one player
Ok, then why the unrealistic expectations while that player is injured? You have to face it, THIS is who we are, it's who we have to be. We're not getting more stars to walk through the door in free agency like the large market teams, we have to take draft risks and hope it pans out.
Frankly, getting Zion was a curse, it would be far easier to build a competitive team around a guy like Morant, but that team will always end up just being competitive and then knocked out in round 1 or 2 of the playoffs. I get it, I would be happy with that right now also, but at a point you'll crave more.
However the ceiling of a team with a guy like Zion is championship contender, if of course he puts in the work required to do it. We're far more talented than the Cleveland teams that were built around Lebron, we're just missing the guy that's supposed to be able to take over like Lebron.
quote:
one more injury away from major problems
One injury to Zion away, yes. Every team is one injury away from major problems.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:36 am to Soggymoss
quote:
Every doom and gloom guy here right now believes we should be 10-1 right now and anything less is a failure, then want to lay everything at Griffs feet like we're not having to play role players in spots they're not comfortable with due to our 2 major stars being injured.
No one thinks we should be 10-1.
If Zion and BI were playing every game, i still would'nt expect to be 10-1. Hell i'd be happy if we simply were 5-6 with both of them playing.
We still went 1-5 with BI playing. That's what is discouraging.
The offseason was a failure, and even if we had a better offseason, and BI and Zion missed these games, we'd still probably be no better than 4-7 right now.
We'll see what we look like when fat zion gets in shape and is playing and so is BI, but we are probably still not even a .500 team with them playing, and that's the problem.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:37 am to AboveTheRim
quote:
It’s becoming more apparent to me that they have reset the clock on the “re-build” .
I would actually be ok with that if I believed it.
Because that would mean we are admitting this team is what most of us fans see, which is not good enough right now and without any obvious paths to dramatic improvement to turn this season around, and would just work on developing our guys and tanking for Chet.
But we are starting Temple, gave up assets for Graham and Jonas, have been leaning heavy on those guys and BI, and presumably Zion once he gets back(if he does).
By all accounts ownership wants wins, and Griff made moves to go in that direction, but failed, mostly.
So I do not see that perspective at all, the opposite in fact. We seem to be the sort of team desperately trying to imitate a better team than we are, and it is probably going to result in another shitty season where we arent good enough to make the playoffs but lose out on the top prospects.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:46 am to Bronc
I don't know if you can reset the clock on the rebuild when Zion is going into his 2nd contract. If you are resetting the clock, then you better be listening to offers for him.
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 8:47 am
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:55 am to Soggymoss
Jake did his entire episode on this very topic today and it was good.
He basically argued:
JUST in the context of this season, yes we should be because we are missing star players.
BUT if you take into David Griffin's entire tenure, NO WAY we should be this bad. Your players that you drafted and trades that you have made should be contributing enough to make you much more competitive, especially considering what he started with.
I really agree. You have guys in year 2 and 3, plus guys that you trade for and extended, and they are giving you nothing.
He basically argued:
JUST in the context of this season, yes we should be because we are missing star players.
BUT if you take into David Griffin's entire tenure, NO WAY we should be this bad. Your players that you drafted and trades that you have made should be contributing enough to make you much more competitive, especially considering what he started with.
I really agree. You have guys in year 2 and 3, plus guys that you trade for and extended, and they are giving you nothing.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:56 am to Soggymoss
quote:
Everyone here says that we need to get another star through the draft, that is universally agreed upon. You don't get that by drafting low ceiling high floor guys, you get them by drafting high ceiling low floor guys. More often than not it doesn't work. Not every pick will be a hit.
we have/had the assets to get a proven star via trade.
sure it would be nice to draft one, but that is not somethign you can rely on, and when you have as many assets as we do, and already have BI and Zion, you don't have to rely on that slim chance.
The Bucks didn't wait around for the draft with Giannis. They made many moves via trade to build around Giannis and Middleton, and it worked out, and they don't care that they don't have future picks, or that they haven't drafted much recently.
quote:
One injury to Zion away, yes. Every team is one injury away from major problems.
so the 76ers without Embiid, Simmons and Harris should go 0-6 the next two weeks right? Let's see how that works out for them.
Clippers are 6-4 playing without their best player, and their team is trash outside of PG and Reggie Jackson. Bledsoe is doing everything he can to help them lose. They'd probably have a better record had they not done that trade and kept Beverly.
Raptors are 6-5 playing without their best player.
there's other teams playing without their 2nd best player, Warriors, Nuggets (2nd and 3rd), Bucks, Pacers.
See the difference in all those teams is who their 3rd best player actually is. The Warriors have Wiggins and Draymond. The Nuggets had MPJ, and have Will Barton and Aaron Gordon. The Bucks have Jrue and Middelton (both have missed significant time, seperately). The Pacers have Levert and Brogdon (both missed significant time, seperately).
Who's our 3rd best player, Devonte Graham or Val? pick either one, but neither of them compare to the people i just listed, and that's what our problem is. We don't have that 3rd guy, and i don't know what the hell we are waiting for to add that 3rd guy. That's why we are 1-10.
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 8:58 am
Posted on 11/10/21 at 8:57 am to J_Hingle
quote:
I don't know if you can reset the clock on the rebuild when Zion is going into his 2nd contract. If you are resetting the clock, then you better be listening to offers for him.
As long as Zion plays enough games to make All NBA in the right seasons and hit the Rose Rule and SuperMax incentives, he's not going anywhere until after his 3rd contract. With the way the cap is expected to rise with the new TV deal, forcing his way out early will cost him probably at least $50 million. Maybe that's not a lot to Zion, but it seems like that would be a lot to the people making a living off of Zion.
I also think the narrative changing to Zion failing the Pels rather than the other way around makes it a lot harder for him to push out early. To me the move to make is fire Griff (and Nelson if Zion won't work with him), and bring in a well respected senior advisor for Langdon. Not necessarily a new POBO, but more of what Ferry was to Demps.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 9:08 am to Bronc
quote:
mean even if Zion makes it back mid December, we are one more injury away from major problems. Graham missed 15 games last season, Jonas is getting absolutely beat up every night, BI is already getting banged up, and we simply do not have the depth to take these blows
all true.
whereas some here saw 6th seed i figured playin scrum because 6th depended on a perfect storm. all healthy and incremental improvements by naw, hayes and kira.
now we are faced with the class of naw and hayes not up to (for instance) an intense game vs a top4 west team with something big on the line. the idea is to think if the guy in question can be projected as "starter on a wcf team". answer is now not even in the rotation of a west championship seventh game.
i guess the o/u is how many games does zion start?
can this pels team make the playin if zion only starts 55 games? maybe. and thats why its painful. 35-20 record plus 7 wins before zion.
makes the playin.
steamrolls to 8th.
all systems go for the gsw series.
of course even with peak zion the pels missing playin could happen if as bronc alluded either jv or graham misses a few weeks in march.
at this point i presume a losing record and a lottery ticket. i have no idea how or when zion transitions from street clothes to starter.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 9:34 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
They made many moves via trade to build around Giannis and Middleton, and it worked out, and they don't care that they don't have future picks, or that they haven't drafted much recently.
Say you don't know how the Bucks build without saying you don't know how the Bucks built.
Since 2015 before the Jrue trade, their trades brought in Delevadova,MCW, Tyler Ennis, George Hill. Miles Plumlee and Mirotic, sending out only 1 first rounder in those deals and not one of them on the championship team.
Their team was literally built by drafting and developing from within until they reached a point 6 or so years into Giannis's career that they could then go out and put future assets down.
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 9:35 am
Posted on 11/10/21 at 10:12 am to TigerinATL
quote:
he's not going anywhere until after his 3rd contract
Man thats optimistic.
I've been on the "he'll sign his next contract with us" point for a while, but I don't see him re-upping an additional contract beyond that.
I think you get the AD treatment, you are on a two season clock starting with his new contract to be a legit championship caliber team, anything short of that and he's gone, likely forcing his way out before his last season(frankly I think even if we won a championship he will end up going to another team to "build his own thing," I just think it is inevitable).
And thats why honestly, as frustrating as it is, I wish this franchise was capable of looking more long-term.
We don't need to tank, but the best path that is realistically available to us to meet that goal(and just build true lasting success) would be to get one more top 5 pick and not blow it.
A core of Chet/Zion/BI is a lot of talent to work with, even if it means you end up trading one of Chet/BI(or even Zion if it trends that way) down the road for a better fit/more committed players, or to transition out of the Zion era
This post was edited on 11/10/21 at 10:14 am
Posted on 11/10/21 at 10:27 am to Bronc
I don't think I'm being overly optimistic in a naive way, I'm just considering factors that don't currently exist but likely will exist when the 3rd contract comes up.
TL;DR The next TV deal should lead to a major cap increase and it's looking like the next CBA will probably try to reduce Player Empowerment. The Pels need to stop screwing around because if you're bad enough money doesn't matter, but if they can be a playoff team by then there will be too much money and incentive only the Pels can give him for the agents to pass up.
TL;DR The next TV deal should lead to a major cap increase and it's looking like the next CBA will probably try to reduce Player Empowerment. The Pels need to stop screwing around because if you're bad enough money doesn't matter, but if they can be a playoff team by then there will be too much money and incentive only the Pels can give him for the agents to pass up.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 10:31 am to Soggymoss
Lets look at their championship team by minutes
Giannis - drafted by Bucks
Middleton - traded to Bucks after rookie year as a throw in for a bigger deal
Jrue - traded to Bucks
Divencenzo - drafted by Bucks #17
Lopez - signed to a 1 year deal using BAE, then given a 4/$52M after proving himself important to the team.
Connaughton - signed for minimum after rookie contract up with Portland, then got $3/16M deal after proving himself important to the team.
Portis - signed using BAE
Forbes - signed for slightly above minimum after rookie deal ended with Spurs.
Tucker - traded to Bucks from Rockets.
Bucks have made 4 first round picks since drafting Giannis 8 years ago.
Jabari Parker - left for nothing after being the #2 pick. Massive miss.
Rashad Vaughn - 2015 #17, did nothing
Thon Maker - 2016 #10, massive miss, traded him and 4 2nds to us for Mirotic to play 14 games for them and then leave for Spain.
DJ Wilson - 2017 #17, did nothing
Divencenzo - 2018 #17, quality player, haven't had a 1st round pick made since him.
Giannis - drafted by Bucks
Middleton - traded to Bucks after rookie year as a throw in for a bigger deal
Jrue - traded to Bucks
Divencenzo - drafted by Bucks #17
Lopez - signed to a 1 year deal using BAE, then given a 4/$52M after proving himself important to the team.
Connaughton - signed for minimum after rookie contract up with Portland, then got $3/16M deal after proving himself important to the team.
Portis - signed using BAE
Forbes - signed for slightly above minimum after rookie deal ended with Spurs.
Tucker - traded to Bucks from Rockets.
Bucks have made 4 first round picks since drafting Giannis 8 years ago.
Jabari Parker - left for nothing after being the #2 pick. Massive miss.
Rashad Vaughn - 2015 #17, did nothing
Thon Maker - 2016 #10, massive miss, traded him and 4 2nds to us for Mirotic to play 14 games for them and then leave for Spain.
DJ Wilson - 2017 #17, did nothing
Divencenzo - 2018 #17, quality player, haven't had a 1st round pick made since him.
quote:
Their team was literally built by drafting and developing from within until they reached a point 6 or so years into Giannis's career that they could then go out and put future assets down.
Posted on 11/10/21 at 10:37 am to TigerinATL
quote:
TL;DR The next TV deal should lead to a major cap increase and it's looking like the next CBA will probably try to reduce Player Empowerment. The Pels need to stop screwing around because if you're bad enough money doesn't matter, but if they can be a playoff team by then there will be too much money and incentive only the Pels can give him for the agents to pass up.
Yeah I guess I could see that as a possibility.
Personally Im not sure what I expect out of the next CBA, but from that perspective nothing you said sounds unreasonable.
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