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Message
re: Lineup for 2016
Posted on 7/3/16 at 8:50 pm to 504ByrdGang
Posted on 7/3/16 at 8:50 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
Lol he played 20 games in the system on one knee of course he hasn't shown anything.
And in those games he was struggling with basic mechanics of the system. He dominated the ball, struggled to play off the ball, slowed the pace down to the lowest pace on the team. And then we had the public statements he made pushing back on the staff trying to change his game.
I just have a very hard time believing that Evans is ever going to be a good fit for this type of system. He would have to radically change his game or force the team to bend to him.
quote:
Tyreke played as scorer at sg, played a facilitator at pg, played at the wing as sf, and came off the bench.
He has almost always been ball dominant, iso heavy and slower paced. That just doesn't work ideally in a Gentry system. He may have lined up at different positions but the way he plays the game doesnt really change. He is ultra high usage, high iso, ball pounding player and is not great off the ball.
This post was edited on 7/3/16 at 8:52 pm
1
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:00 pm to NOLA Bronco
I can't disagree with most of those. But he is also highly productive and extremely talented. His numbers with the Kings and even at times with us have been impressive. Our run to the playoffs pretty much rode on his back. We will never get better just pushing aside better players for better fits. The coach should find a way to make the better players thrive. Thats his job and frick his system if he can't make it work.
I can argue Holiday vs Evans all day. They are both flawed players and neither is my ideal of a PG. The biggest difference to me is Evans was always the man since he came into the league. Holiday has never been better than the 3rd best guy on any team he has been on. So I give Evans more respect for going through that. Thats pretty much what seperates them, in my mind..
I can argue Holiday vs Evans all day. They are both flawed players and neither is my ideal of a PG. The biggest difference to me is Evans was always the man since he came into the league. Holiday has never been better than the 3rd best guy on any team he has been on. So I give Evans more respect for going through that. Thats pretty much what seperates them, in my mind..
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:05 pm to brmark70816
Holiday vs Evans is simple. Evans is more talented and Holiday is smarter. When Evans plays smart he is much better than Holiday but he doesn't do it consistent enough. Holiday plays smarter majority of the time therefore he plays better.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:06 pm to brmark70816
Our run rode on AD posting an almost all time kind of efficiency.
He was a role player, just like anything else on the team. I would argue omer asik and his defense played a larger role.
Evans is also the man so much he's never led a team to the playoffs, same can be said of jrue. The difference is one player fits a role of team concept and the new need for ball movement over iso heavy offenses. Evans is a good player, but he's a ball dominant guy who needs to be the guy, not the role player. Issue is he's not good enough to be the guy.
He was a role player, just like anything else on the team. I would argue omer asik and his defense played a larger role.
Evans is also the man so much he's never led a team to the playoffs, same can be said of jrue. The difference is one player fits a role of team concept and the new need for ball movement over iso heavy offenses. Evans is a good player, but he's a ball dominant guy who needs to be the guy, not the role player. Issue is he's not good enough to be the guy.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:12 pm to brmark70816
quote:
. Our run to the playoffs pretty much rode on his back
Come on now, AD had a historic season and closed out two teams that were the difference between making the playoffs and not. Lets not go overboard. He had a good run but lets not get too crazy. Qpon also had a career run as did Norris Cole, plus Asik looked competent for most of the post all star break and we got Jrue back down the stretch to give us some energy.
quote:
The coach should find a way to make the better players thrive. Thats his job and frick his system if he can't make it work.
But how do you make this magically work? Playing Evans ball means sacrificing the entire reason we brought Gentry in in the first place. If he struggles to buy in/adapt, what do you do? Ideally you let him play the sixth man role but he pouted and complained the first go round so that has to be a concern.
You seem to have a really odd view of NBA coaching. When guys don't buy in/can't adapt its not automatically the coach's fault. Monta Ellis was a very good player, but he just didn't fit ideally with where the Warriors were trying to go. So they moved on. Rick Carlisle is one of the best coaches in the game, but he couldn't make Rajon Rondo work positively for them. Is he now trash in your mind? Because you know, frick him if he can't make it work?
This post was edited on 7/3/16 at 9:14 pm
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:12 pm to htran90
Post allstar break when he became the pg he avg 16.3/7.6/5 shooting 47%FG in 33mins Role player numbers. Asik posted identical numbers. Please also explain to me 3 player who never shot over 405 from 3 in their career suddenly did when he became pg. I bet that was just Monty coaching them up.
This post was edited on 7/3/16 at 9:16 pm
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:14 pm to htran90
So we are really just debating whether Evans is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team, right? So even if he is 3rd, why would you bench him and start 3 lesser players ahead of him? That just doesn't happen in the league. Maybe if he was a niche guy, batshit crazy or severely limited in some way, but he's not. He is going to start, always has and till he falls off, always will..
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:17 pm to brmark70816
I think the debate is should Gentry adjust his system to accommodate Tyreke. Honestly a bench unit of Tyreke/Asik and 3 shooters should be a great way to slow the game down when AD is on the bench. But if the key to Gentry's system is constant ball movement and no ball dominators, you really have to commit to it and really shouldn't go halfway.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:18 pm to brmark70816
quote:
So we are really just debating whether Evans is the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team, right? So even if he is 3rd, why would you bench him and start 3 lesser players ahead of him? That just doesn't happen in the league. Maybe if he was a niche guy, batshit crazy or severely limited in some way, but he's not. He is going to start, always has and till he falls off, always will..
Synergy.
Iggy is arguably the third best player on the Warriors but from a synergy standpoint it works better with him coming off the bench and being moved around and utilized for matchup purposes.
If Evans can buy in and show he can adapt at a high level to being a combination off ball/on ball player that can be a good decision maker on both sides of the ball while playing with the pace and ball movement we are striving for, then by all means I would love to see him as a our starting 2 guard. I just have large concerns for whether he can become that.
This post was edited on 7/3/16 at 9:20 pm
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:22 pm to TigerinATL
Don't take this the wrong way, but who cares about the bench unit? Nobody ever won in the league cause they have the best bench. They play about a 1/4 of the game, usually less against better teams. We need solid starters. Once we figure that out, then I'd worry about a couple of short term vets to bolster the bench. It should not be a priority..
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:22 pm to NOLA Bronco
quote:
Synergy.
Iggy is arguably the third best player on the Warriors but from a synergy standpoint it works better with him coming off the bench and being moved around and utilized for matchup purposes.
If Evans can buy in and show he can adapt at a high level to being a combination off ball/on ball player that can be a good decision maker on both sides of the ball while playing with the pace and ball movement we are striving for, then by all means I would love to see him as a our starting 2 guard. I just have large concerns for whether he can become that.
That's when advance stats become dumb Iggy is not arguably the Warriors 3rd best player. It's not even a discussion it's Steph, Dray, and Klay. Both Iggy and Bogut have a case for 4th.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:25 pm to 504ByrdGang
quote:
That's when advance stats become dumb Iggy is not arguably the Warriors 3rd best player. It's not even a discussion it's Steph, Dray, and Klay. Both Iggy and Bogut have a case for 4th.
Point still stands, by his logic you start your best players 1-5. But we know in reality that doesnt always make the most sense.
For a good stretch of time Manu was arguably the second best player on the Spurs but it made sense for a number of reasons to bring him off the bench. Same goes for Harden in OKC.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:26 pm to 504ByrdGang
Plus Iggy was over 30 and coming off the worst year of his career. The move to the bench bailed him out. He just wasn't that good anymore. In spurts he was ok, which is why he thrived in that role.
Evans hasn't declined yet and he is 6 years younger than Iggy. I don't think it's a good comparison..
Evans hasn't declined yet and he is 6 years younger than Iggy. I don't think it's a good comparison..
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:26 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but who cares about the bench unit? Nobody ever won in the league cause they have the best bench. They play about a 1/4 of the game, usually less against better teams. We need solid starters. Once we figure that out, then I'd worry about a couple of short term vets to bolster the bench. It should not be a priority..
Not sure what basketball you have been watching? Spurs, Lebron Heat, Warriors. All championship teams that owe a lot to having strong depth used optimally.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:30 pm to brmark70816
quote:
who cares about the bench unit?
Because that's the only way Tyreke would have a significant role. Gentry's system is not compatible with Tyreke running the offense. Tyreke's at his best attacking the basket with other people cleaning up his misses. Last year they shifted priority away from offensive rebounding and towards transition defense. Then there's the ball movement issue where Gentry doesn't want someone dribbling instead of passing.
Tyreke supporters keep clinging to how Tyreke played under Montyball, but the team isn't playing Montyball anymore and probably isn't switching any time soon with 2 more years guaranteed on Gentry's contract.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:32 pm to NOLA Bronco
Please let me know which of these took one of their top 3 players under 30 and put them on the bench. It was a national debate when the Cavs thought about doing it with Love, when he was struggling. Good teams get solid vets on cheap contracts to fill out the bench. Examples are too numerous to point out. We are no where near that level yet..
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:44 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Please let me know which of these took one of their top 3 players under 30 and put them on the bench. It was a national debate when the Cavs thought about doing it with Love, when he was struggling. Good teams get solid vets on cheap contracts to fill out the bench. Examples are too numerous to point out. We are no where near that level yet..
Trying to narrow the conversation I see?
OKC and SA. One with multiple championship trophies and the other with their only Championship appearance.
Lets not pretend this is some sort of radical and unproven idea that there are instances where it is most optimal for a team to have a certain top 3 player on a roster to come off the bench.
This post was edited on 7/3/16 at 9:45 pm
Posted on 7/3/16 at 9:56 pm to NOLA Bronco
Not at all. But I have no idea what you are trying to say. So please enlighten me..
Posted on 7/3/16 at 10:00 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Not at all. But I have no idea what you are trying to say. So please enlighten me..
SA and OKC both put two of their top 3 players on the bench because it was the best way to use them for the teams sake. The former won multiple titles, the latter achieved their only championship appearance.
Not sure how more clear I can make it?
This notion that Evans on the bench if he can't work optimally in Gentry's system as a starter is not some radical notion.
Posted on 7/3/16 at 10:13 pm to NOLA Bronco
Yeah, but no. Neither ones of those teams did that. I can debate Manu and Harden, but they are special circumstances and huge outliers to normal basketball teams. Manu was a career starter that had severe physical issues, so he came off the bench when he got in his 30s. Harden was never a starter and backed up a defensive demon. He was still in his rookie contract when he was traded.
All of that aside. You don't think Evans will work however we use him. You just figure he'll cause less headaches on the bench. Maybe you are right. But we can't just keep letting assets walk.
All of that aside. You don't think Evans will work however we use him. You just figure he'll cause less headaches on the bench. Maybe you are right. But we can't just keep letting assets walk.
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