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re: Hawkins is now the 6th man off the bench for the Pels, but I'd love a platoon lineup
Posted on 11/15/23 at 9:38 pm to Dinky Mulberry
Posted on 11/15/23 at 9:38 pm to Dinky Mulberry
quote:
In today's game...with Trey's 3-pt shooting ability AND size and hopefully increased strength...I can't imagine a worse thing for Trey to do...than to try & develope a midrange game at this stage. (MAYBE a 5-foot floater but that's it !!)
I don’t think he should focus on it at all. But he’s a pure shooter and with a stroke that good I also don’t think he should avoid taking them if the defense gives it to him.
If he makes defenses start to respect him not just deep but from midrange as well that will only make it easier for him to drive the rim
1
Posted on 11/15/23 at 9:52 pm to Terrific Tales
quote:
If he makes defenses start to respect him not just deep but from midrange as well that will only make it easier for him to drive the rim
Gotta strong feelin' the opposition would luv for a player like Trey...to shoot 15'-18'...all night long. They'd back off and say go ahead...and we'd end up hating it if Trey took those shots...same as many of us do...with BI.
This post was edited on 11/15/23 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 11/15/23 at 9:59 pm to Dinky Mulberry
quote:
Gotta strong feelin' the opposition would luv for a player like Trey...to shoot 15'-18'...all night long. They'd back off and say go ahead...and we'd end up hating it if Trey took those shots...same as many of us do...with BI.
Yes and no
If he did it all the time I think we would dislike it. But also for a shooter I think the #1 thing that matters is points per shot, and if he hits them at a high enough clip that it’s still efficient relative to his three ball, it’s fine
BI certainly has some legitimate gripes against his reliance on the midrange. But he is also a top 3 midrange scorer in the league. I think him going iso into his midranges is way more problematic for our offense than the midranges themselves
Posted on 11/15/23 at 10:21 pm to Terrific Tales
quote:
BI certainly has some legitimate gripes against his reliance on the midrange. But he is also a top 3 midrange scorer in the league.
For his 8-yr CAREER...with his "top" midrange game...BI has shot 38% on 3-10' shots...44% from 10-16'...and 43% from 16'to the 3-pt line.
Herb Jones, not exactly a great 3-pt shooter, has a career 33.3% from 3...which we all know...translates to an eFG% of 49.8% when Herb takes a 3. A better eFG% than ANY of BI's midrange shots.
We're better off...with Herb throwin' up one of his 3s...than we are on ANY of BI's midrangers. That, rather amazing stat...is why the NBA has become a league of 3-pters. (EDIT...sorry, make that "a league of 3-pters AND 3 footers")
This post was edited on 11/15/23 at 10:38 pm
Posted on 11/16/23 at 1:18 am to Dinky Mulberry
Except you make those things sound mutually exclusive to each other when they’re not
Herb is indeed not a great career 3pt shooter, but he would be even worse if he didn’t get open looks
What generates open looks? Movement and gravity
It’s easy and extremely fair to see that if BI doesn’t pull defenders in because they need to stop him from taking the middies, Herb doesn’t get as many open looks and therefore doesn’t shoot as well. So no we aren’t better off with any of Herb’s 3pt shots because without the BI middies Herb’s percentage wouldn’t even be that.
That’s why I hate when people try to compare stats like that because it ignores what’s actually making those shots more or less effective and why the defense getting pulled around matters
Herb is indeed not a great career 3pt shooter, but he would be even worse if he didn’t get open looks
What generates open looks? Movement and gravity
It’s easy and extremely fair to see that if BI doesn’t pull defenders in because they need to stop him from taking the middies, Herb doesn’t get as many open looks and therefore doesn’t shoot as well. So no we aren’t better off with any of Herb’s 3pt shots because without the BI middies Herb’s percentage wouldn’t even be that.
That’s why I hate when people try to compare stats like that because it ignores what’s actually making those shots more or less effective and why the defense getting pulled around matters
Posted on 11/16/23 at 9:22 am to Terrific Tales
Good discussion...now...How about this? Can we at least agree, that if BI takes 18 shots or so...maybe 6 or 7 of them can be 3s and the other 11 or 12 could be anywhere else he chooses INSIDE the 3-pt line? That, along with Zion...should provide decent "gravity" for our outside shooters to get decent looks from the 3-pt line.
NOBODY wants BI to shoot 18 3s, and no midrange shots. Just try and get back to where he was when he first arrived in NO...which was around 35% of his shots being from 3.
BTW: I'd be even happier if BI would maybe try & draw a few more fouls every now & then...he shoots the worst shots quite often, closely guarded...and seems to want to avoid contact by falling away. Take a lesson from DeRozan, although I despise his offensive game...who shoots maybe 10% of his shots from 3, but at least, constantly tries to draw fouls on his midrange shots. DD has a lousy efg% and I wouldn't want him if the Bulls gave him to the Pels for free...but at least, he has a decent TS% with all his FTs.
NOBODY wants BI to shoot 18 3s, and no midrange shots. Just try and get back to where he was when he first arrived in NO...which was around 35% of his shots being from 3.
BTW: I'd be even happier if BI would maybe try & draw a few more fouls every now & then...he shoots the worst shots quite often, closely guarded...and seems to want to avoid contact by falling away. Take a lesson from DeRozan, although I despise his offensive game...who shoots maybe 10% of his shots from 3, but at least, constantly tries to draw fouls on his midrange shots. DD has a lousy efg% and I wouldn't want him if the Bulls gave him to the Pels for free...but at least, he has a decent TS% with all his FTs.
This post was edited on 11/16/23 at 9:51 am
Posted on 11/16/23 at 9:33 am to whatiknowsofar
my lineup, when completely health (yeah, i know, it'll never happen) would be:
PG- CJ
SG- BI
SF- Trey
PF- Zion
C- Val
6th- Herb
7th- Jose
8th- Hawkins
9th- Daniels
10th- Nance
11th- Naji
12th- Ryan
13th- Kira
14th- Zeller
15th- Robinson-Earl
Seabron and Liddell shouldn't be in the NBA
PG- CJ
SG- BI
SF- Trey
PF- Zion
C- Val
6th- Herb
7th- Jose
8th- Hawkins
9th- Daniels
10th- Nance
11th- Naji
12th- Ryan
13th- Kira
14th- Zeller
15th- Robinson-Earl
Seabron and Liddell shouldn't be in the NBA
Posted on 11/16/23 at 11:20 am to Dinky Mulberry
quote:
Good discussion...now...How about this? Can we at least agree, that if BI takes 18 shots or so...maybe 6 or 7 of them can be 3s and the other 11 or 12 could be anywhere else he chooses INSIDE the 3-pt line? That, along with Zion...should provide decent "gravity" for our outside shooters to get decent looks from the 3-pt line. NOBODY wants BI to shoot 18 3s, and no midrange shots. Just try and get back to where he was when he first arrived in NO...which was around 35% of his shots being from 3. BTW: I'd be even happier if BI would maybe try & draw a few more fouls every now & then...he shoots the worst shots quite often, closely guarded...and seems to want to avoid contact by falling away. Take a lesson from DeRozan, although I despise his offensive game...who shoots maybe 10% of his shots from 3, but at least, constantly tries to draw fouls on his midrange shots. DD has a lousy efg% and I wouldn't want him if the Bulls gave him to the Pels for free...but at least, he has a decent TS% with all his FTs.
I agree with all of this. But you do realize that there is a difference between what you’re saying here and what a lot of Pels fans complain about when it comes to BI’s mid range game?
Posted on 11/16/23 at 11:28 am to Honest Man
You know what I literally just realized, at this time a year ago, we were all talking about how we had insane wing depth, and our center position was fine, but our guard depth was sorely lacking
Now we have insane guard and wing depth, but unless Larry healthy is what Larry used to be, we are really lacking at the center position.
What a difference a year makes
Now we have insane guard and wing depth, but unless Larry healthy is what Larry used to be, we are really lacking at the center position.
What a difference a year makes
Posted on 11/16/23 at 11:39 am to Terrific Tales
There are a lot people who warned us about Larry. We gave him an extension knowing he had extensive health issues and isn’t some young guy.
Luckily I think the impact we’re getting from Hawkins was generally unexpected and Dyson continues to improve offensively and defensively.
Honestly in a guard driven league I rather have center issues than wing/guard issues.
Luckily I think the impact we’re getting from Hawkins was generally unexpected and Dyson continues to improve offensively and defensively.
Honestly in a guard driven league I rather have center issues than wing/guard issues.
Posted on 11/16/23 at 11:40 am to Terrific Tales
BIs midrange game is a good asset when he uses it within the flow of the offense. Ala offball, off an action, off of ball movement, or a bailout option.
BI and Z has a habit of dribbling the ball up the court, ignoring the offense, and just take turns iso-ing their way into a difficult shot attempt. While it works because of their talent level, it's never sustainable the entire game since they work so much harder to score, and it becomes less effective once teams dial in to stop it.
What we saw against the Mavs was beautiful. They didn't force the offense and let the offense comes to them. These type of production explosion from our role guys won't occur every night but you'll win a lot more frequently if they just trust the process and stay committed to running the offense allowing their role guys to help reduce the pressure to score on every possession.
BI and Z has a habit of dribbling the ball up the court, ignoring the offense, and just take turns iso-ing their way into a difficult shot attempt. While it works because of their talent level, it's never sustainable the entire game since they work so much harder to score, and it becomes less effective once teams dial in to stop it.
What we saw against the Mavs was beautiful. They didn't force the offense and let the offense comes to them. These type of production explosion from our role guys won't occur every night but you'll win a lot more frequently if they just trust the process and stay committed to running the offense allowing their role guys to help reduce the pressure to score on every possession.
Posted on 11/16/23 at 11:46 am to Terrific Tales
quote:Nahhh
You know what I literally just realized, at this time a year ago, we were all talking about how we had insane wing depth, and our center position was fine, but our guard depth was sorely lacking
Pels Talk spent all of last season harping on another big being our biggest need.
Posted on 11/16/23 at 11:48 am to shel311
quote:
Nahhh Pels Talk spent all of last season harping on another big being our biggest need.
That was more later in the year as I remember. Especially when Larry was Hurt and Zion was also hurt. When Zion was playing minutes at the 5 and Zion/Larry 4/5 lineups were like +40 at one point no one was talking about center at all other than some people saying Larry should start over JV
Posted on 11/16/23 at 1:26 pm to Terrific Tales
I was just watching the Brett Usher Twitter reel going around with all of Trey’s deep threes from his career
Man that first game that Trey and Hawk both have a good shooting night and hit 5+ 3s each is gonna hit like fricking crack cocaine
When Z drives and pulls 2 defenders, kicks it out to Trey who gets late contested and kicks it out to Hawk who takes a 3 with no one within 15 feet of him I might literally ascend into the astral plane
Man that first game that Trey and Hawk both have a good shooting night and hit 5+ 3s each is gonna hit like fricking crack cocaine
When Z drives and pulls 2 defenders, kicks it out to Trey who gets late contested and kicks it out to Hawk who takes a 3 with no one within 15 feet of him I might literally ascend into the astral plane
Posted on 11/16/23 at 1:28 pm to Terrific Tales
Yea. People seem to have forgotten that Trey shoots from space.
Posted on 11/16/23 at 1:33 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
Yea. People seem to have forgotten that Trey shoots from space.
Having 2 elite volume shooters in general is already better than the Pelicans have had probably ever
Having one shooter that shoots from passive space just because he has unlimited range AND one that shoots from active space because he’s generates his looks off of movement and screens and they are both volume guys is championship level stuff
Combine that with the NBA player that benefits from spacing probably more than any player in todays game (Zion) and a point guard who is also an elite level 3pt shooter (CJ)…
Man that will be some fun stuff
This post was edited on 11/16/23 at 1:42 pm
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