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hellsu
LSU Fan
Northshore via Westbank
Member since Jan 2009
1636 posts

Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
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L.A. Times article refers again and again to his work ethic.
This post was edited on 1/16 at 10:57 am


Pelefraan 1
Member since Jan 2018
4320 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
Breaking news:

Player with a lot of God given talent and a great work ethic fulfils his potential

More at 11 Chuck

Not trying to detract from what Ingram has done, but why not shine the spotlight on the little guy who's made it big?
This post was edited on 1/16 at 11:02 am


brmark70816
LSU Fan
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
6374 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
I'm still on the fence about Ingram. I know that most on here love him. But I just don't believe he is a star and is pretty much hit his peak. A poor man's Paul George that isn't a winner or a closer. There is just something missing in his game..


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
3896 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
His work ethic would have no doubt turned him into a very good player eventually, but I don’t think it happens the way it does or as fast as it does without coming to NOLA.

The combination of competitive fuel being told you weren’t good enough, having access to what I don’t think is fair to say at this point, one of the greatest shooting coach’s ever, to go with a unique opportunity to take the reigns as the man and grow into that role.


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Pelefraan 1
Member since Jan 2018
4320 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

I'm still on the fence about Ingram. I know that most on here love him. But I just don't believe he is a star and is pretty much hit his peak. A poor man's Paul George that isn't a winner or a closer. There is just something missing in his game..


I know what you mean. It's like everything he does is slightly in slow motion



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30
whatiknowsofar
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
hm?
Member since Nov 2010
10343 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

I'm still on the fence about Ingram.


I'm not. Hes got the same issue as Zion by not having spacers out there and he can still get his shot on anyone in the league and is showing that he can finish at the rim a little more too. His work ethic is what will take him over the top. BI will probably be an MVP candidate at some point in his career.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
3896 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

But I just don't believe he is a star and is pretty much hit his peak


That’s because you cling to a poor application of generalized statistical analysis


and tried to argue with a straight face that Ingram’s at his peak(a guy that just turned 23) and halfway through his career(I can not emphasize this enough, you are saying this about a guy that just turned 23), that we have an old team(5th youngest team), and that players of Ingram’s caliber don’t make it to 30 in this league(players that make at least one all star play into their thirty’s on average, or at least 12 seasons).

You have a warped and incorrect understanding of player growth curves and longevity and have seemingly, based on this post, refused to correct that ignorance.

It’s also just absurd to say a player is tapped out when literally he took a condensed offseason and added a efficient off-dribble and pull up three(one of the most deadly skills you can have as an offensive player), leaped up his facilitation skills, and has become a solid to good defender after being a below average one..And he’s still 3 years from the start of his likely peak.
This post was edited on 1/16 at 11:18 am


brmark70816
LSU Fan
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
6374 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

I'm not. Hes got the same issue as Zion by not having spacers out there and he can still get his shot on anyone in the league and is showing that he can finish at the rim a little more too. His work ethic is what will take him over the top. BI will probably be an MVP candidate at some point in his career.



Ingram is in his 5th year and is a max player. He should be the face of the franchise and under tremendous pressure to win. It's not a placeholder deal. He should be the guy. He got bailed out that we got Zion. So he honestly has no attention and would hate it if he got it. It's a great situation for him. Being a MVP would mean being the guy, putting up monster stats on a Championship level team. I just don't see that happening..


brmark70816
LSU Fan
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
6374 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
I didn't say he was tapped out. I said that he is entering his prime at 23-25. I said that he would most likely be out of the league by 30. You posted an article that tried to list a player's prime as around 27, when the average age is less than 25. It was interesting and I conceded I was wrong about our team's age. Not sure how much more of a mea culpa I needed to do..


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
3896 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

I didn't say he was tapped out. I said that he is entering his prime at 23-25. I said that he would most likely be out of the league by 30


And all of this is statistically incorrect about the type of player Ingram is. And you literally just said you think he is at his peak...Despite him currently improving his game in real time

quote:

You posted an article that tried to list a player's prime as around 27, when the average age is less than 25. I


Because you do not understand how to properly contextualize statistics. We went over this, your using generalized statistics and applying them to a specialized context. It’s the equivalent of saying Brees, coming from the Chargers to the Saints, likely won’t play more than a season even if healthy because the average QB in the NFL only lasts 3 years.

You are taking an average derived from raw data and applying it out of context. In layman’s terms, You are allowing scrubs and journeymen to skew your numbers. Players that demonstrate certain benchmarks and staying power(attaining max contracts, all star appearances) they stay in the league and they don’t really reach their peak statistical output until 26-28. Sometimes older. You are just wrong on the context and facts here pal.


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hellsu
LSU Fan
Northshore via Westbank
Member since Jan 2009
1636 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
Everybody still salty about the loss and current skid but give me character and work ethic any day and at least you know what you've got. This is a better team than they are showing and they will get better. It is laughable to suggest that Ingram has hit his peak at this stage.


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brmark70816
LSU Fan
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
6374 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
Why not take it even smaller? Take all the players with his rare condition and forecast out the remainder of his career.

You are cherry picking factors, shrinking the pool from a 1000 to less than 50 to back a fantastical theory. You are asserting that he will not hit his peak until a vast majority players careers are over.

I could buy the idea that his peak could be extended. But you can't extrapolate his current numbers to incrementally increasing every year for the next 4 and then a 3-4 year peak and a steady decline. That is incredibly rare and would make him a top 5 player all time.

Everybody is comparing him to Durant. At 23, Durant had OKC in the Finals and was averaging 30 ppg. People knew who Durant is. He was a massive star. Only NBA diehards know Ingram. He has a huge way to go to reach that level..


Pelefraan 1
Member since Jan 2018
4320 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
Ingram is basically maxed out. This is essentially the finished product

What huge upside are people seeing?


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Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
3896 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

You are cherry picking factors, shrinking the pool from a 1000 to less than 50 to back a fantastical theory. You are asserting that he will not hit his peak until a vast majority players careers are over.


What fantastical theory is that? Parsing down the raw data into relevant data before we apply calculations and analysis? In this case the simple criteria being players that make an all star game and/or receive a large second contract. I.E. the type of player Ingram is.

Cherry picking is what you do to force the statistics to say what you want them to, like taking a set of data and pulling out one or two data points that confirm the bias you want. Contextualizing is eliminating non relevant data that doesn’t fit your criteria and calculating and analyzing based on the results, whatever they may be.


Please explain to me why we would be more wise to apply analytical results derived from raw statistics than a model more closely aligned with the player we have?

Explain to me why an average derived from a set of data that doesn’t parse out the busts and journeyman of the league is what we should rely upon to make projections about the career longevity and peak of an all star player as opposed to averages derived from data that eliminates that non-relevant data and fits the relevant criteria?

This is data analysis 101. You remove non-relevant data before applying formulas and making calculations. Otherwise you end up with lurking variables that skew your results and lead you to draw incorrect conclusions. Which is exactly what you have done here.

.
This post was edited on 1/16 at 12:25 pm


GynoSandberg
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Jan 2006
67711 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:


Everybody is comparing him to Durant. At 23, Durant had OKC in the Finals and was averaging 30 ppg. People knew who Durant is. He was a massive star. Only NBA diehards know Ingram. He has a huge way to go to reach that level..



Durant is a top 5 player of all time and the archetype of player with that unique skillset. He also has 50 lbs and 3 inches on Ingram

All that said, there are reasons why he draws Durant comps

Image: https://i.ibb.co/x3b6ks2/Screen-Shot-2021-01-16-at-12-42-37-PM.png


Ingram could be a 30 point scorer right now if he wanted. But it would be with increased usage and detrimental to the team. If he had a Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka on this team, we wouldnt be 4-7


Colonel Flagg
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2010
19737 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
The Pelicans literally have the role players/bench losing the games for them. That is why the team can’t compete. Those players are asked to not make stupid turnovers and make open shots.

Pelicans 3 PT Shooting

Redick 18-61 29.5%
Ball 20-65 30.8%
Hart 14-44 31.8%
Melli 3-16 18.8%

Total 55-186 29.6%

Last Season 3 PT Shooting

Redick 180-397 45.3%
Ball 148-395 37.5%
Hart 121-354 34.2%
Melli 69-206 33.5%

Total 518- 1352 38.3%

The only players pulling their weight right now are BI, Zion, Adams, and NAW.
This post was edited on 1/16 at 1:24 pm


Pistol44
New Orleans
Member since Jun 2019
221 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
I didn’t like he only took 6 shots in the second half. Needs to be more aggressive especially against top tier teams. We need to get 50 points from Zion and BI consistently.
This post was edited on 1/16 at 1:07 pm


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brmark70816
LSU Fan
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
6374 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
What you have done is take a small group of players, which skews the averages to a great length. You are putting Ingram into the exclusive company of HOFers at 23 years old. You say he isn't in his prime yet. You are projecting a 15 year career for him. That is very rare. There are less than 30 players in the league now that will play 15-20 years.

By tying him in with guys like James, Paul, Anthony, Wade, Harden.. They skew the numbers to a dramatic effect. Those are impacted much more in a smaller sample group, right? James alone would blow any averages away. He is a legendary ironman. You can't include him, but throw out the bottom 900. That's why I don't trust your numbers. He doesn't belong in that elite of a club.


Bronc
Member since Sep 2018
3896 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
quote:

What you have done is take a small group of players, which skews the averages to a great length. You are putting Ingram into the exclusive company of HOFers at 23 years old. You say he isn't in his prime yet. You are projecting a 15 year career for him. That is very rare. There are less than 30 players in the league now that will play 15-20 years.


The numbers I gave you around career length are based on players that have made an all star appearance, that is the only actual criteria, but it serves as a way to remove non-relevant data like journeyman and scrubs. Arguably the data should be smoothed further since that data set went back 40 years and since then players have come out sooner and stayed longer, so the actual number for players today is actually longer.

The peak statistical output that comes to 26-28 is based on ALL data. You can look at it multiple different ways(all nba appearances, certain statistical maximums etc).

What you have said is only backed up if you refuse to properly contextualize data in even the most basic of ways to get a comparable data set(or just make shite up altogether like claiming a players peak is at 23-25).

If Ingram is at his peak he would be a major statistical outlier, if he is halfway through his career it would mean he is trending way, way below the average career of all star level players in the last 40 or so years.

You are just wrong here, full stop


brmark70816
LSU Fan
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
6374 posts

re: Brandon Ingram shows Lakers he isn't the same player they traded
You totally disregarded everything I said and explained, then double downed on your original point.

quote:

What you have said is only backed up if you refuse to properly contextualize data in even the most basic of ways to get a comparable data set(or just make shite up altogether like claiming a players peak is at 23-25).



The context you are using is a select group of the greatest players. Guys with huge, long guaranteed contracts that have many reasons for playing longer. Superstars with many, many years of high production. All of those skew the numbers in a way that is much more dramatic than taking the raw collective.

quote:

If Ingram is at his peak he would be a major statistical outlier, if he is halfway through his career it would mean he is trending way, way below the average career of all star level players in the last 40 or so years.



I would never hope this. But Ingram is one injury away from never playing again. Or being severely limited for a major portion. I barely even looked at a 10 year span of "all stars" and found many examples.

Gilbert Arenas- peak of 25, out of the league by 30
Yao Ming- peak at 26, out of the league at 30
Josh Howard- peak at 26, out of the league at 32
Mehmut Okur- peak at 27, out of the league at 32
Brandon Roy- peak at 24, out of the league at 28
Danny Granger- peak at 25, out of the league at 32
David Lee- peak at 26, out of the league at 33 (sucked after 30).
Andrew Bynum- peak at 24, out of the league at 26
Roy Hibbert- peak at 25, out of the league at 30
Deron Williams- peak 25-27, out of the league at 32

Even look at a bunch of guys currently playing..

Derrick Rose- peak at 22
Kevin Love- peak at 23-25
Demarcus Cousins- peak 24-27
Brook Lopez- peak at 24
John Wall- peak at 25

I am sure you will point to injuries. But that is the point. 23-25 is when most peak and start making their All-stars. That peak may get dragged out or they are just living on reputation.

quote:

You are just wrong here, full stop



I just think we disagree. The body is different for everyone, so there are no exact age. But I know the defaults. I believe you are engineering an answer that fit your narrative. I'm sure I do the same thing to a certain extent. I will offer an olive branch though and agree that for a Superstar, they have a long peak that can extend throughs the later part of their 20's and sometimes into the 30's.


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