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Started By
Message
re: B.I. tidbits (rumors maybe)
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:17 pm to brmark70816
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:17 pm to brmark70816
quote:What was personal about what I said that you quoted?
You guys take this too personal
quote:For max players who came into the league at 19?
What I'm saying is a statistical average.
quote:Name all of the max salary players who were done by 30
I said Ingram would be done by 30. Or all players who averaged over 20ppg, or anyway you feel is valid to have this discussion about player's of BI's caliber, because you obviously can't compare him to a dude who plays in the league 3 years then no one wants any more.
quote:If that's the case, you'll be able to come up with a looooooong list of players on BI's level who hung em up at 30, right?
but the odds are dramatically on my side.
This post was edited on 8/7/23 at 12:18 pm
1
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:34 pm to shel311
quote:debatable?
What was personal about what I said that you quoted?
It happens anytime this subject is touched. Wait for the other to jump in and why call me out by name then?
quote:
For max players who came into the league at 19?
I talk about everyone. I don't separate players in various categories to talk in generalities. The only difference with him coming in so young is he'll have a longer career than the average.
quote:
If that's the case, you'll be able to come up with a looooooong list of players on BI's level who hung em up at 30, right?
Sure. Would it really help? Most times I get these homework assignments put in a ton of research and it's all for naught. It's breezed over and people jump to the next subject.
I'm not even sure what "Ingrams level" means. A 20+ppg starter?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:37 pm to brmark70816
quote:Yes, it's the only way to logically do this excercise.
Sure. Would it really help?
You think BI will be done by 30, retired. So it's a fair question to ask for all of the players on BI's level who have done the same, right?
Like I said, what good would it do to compare the avg league lifespan or some dudes who are out of the league by 30? They don't retire by 30, they just aren't wanted any more, so why would that be the better comparison?
quote:Well, I can help you here. Don't do any homework, don't spend any time researching what I asked. The answer is basically 0, no players of BI's ilk retire before 30. I saved you time there.
Most times I get these homework assignments put in a ton of research and it's all for naught
quote:You can even define it however you like, provided it's pretty logical, as in not comparing him to journeymen dudes who are out of the league by 24, and not because they decided to be out of the league. Starter, 20ppg, dude who plays over 30mpg...you name it. Those dudes don't retire by 30, do they?
I'm not even sure what "Ingrams level" means. A 20+ppg starter?
This post was edited on 8/7/23 at 12:39 pm
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:40 pm to brmark70816
There are statistics. I'm too busy to look for the source right now, but basketball players peak at 28 on average. The athletic ability peaks before that, but skills continue to improve, so peak performance averages at 28.
In reality, that includes players who suffer serious injury and who don't recover properly and still play but are unable to be at that level. So, the peak for those without ACL, achilles, and broken leg injuries would probably be more like 29.
In reality, that includes players who suffer serious injury and who don't recover properly and still play but are unable to be at that level. So, the peak for those without ACL, achilles, and broken leg injuries would probably be more like 29.
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:51 pm to shel311
quote:
The answer is basically 0, no players of BI's ilk retire before 30. I saved you time there.
You really want me to look? It's simple, I'll go straight to injuries (Brandon Roy) and I can give you 20 in a heartbeat.
Or I can go with former "stars" that were journeyman in their late 20s (Granger, Ellis, Arenas). That'd be dozens more.
But they are all not going to count for some reason, cause they just aren't enough like him. It's a circular debate. But the numbers are massively on my side.
quote:
Those dudes don't retire by 30, do they?
Some people don't have a choice..
Posted on 8/7/23 at 12:54 pm to brmark70816
quote:I don't think you can name 20 players on the level of BI or Brandon Roy "in a heartbeat" at all
I'll go straight to injuries (Brandon Roy) and I can give you 20 in a heartbeat.
quote:The only way the numbers can be "massively" on your side is if well over 50% of players that are good players like BI are done by 30, you would agree with that, correct?
But the numbers are massively on my side.
Posted on 8/7/23 at 1:03 pm to shel311
quote:
only way the numbers can be "massively" on your side is if well over 50% of players that are good players like BI are done by 30, you would agree with that, correct?
I don't know what this means. It's a shrinking argument. This is happens everytime. Soon it'll be down to light skinned right handed players over 6'7 that sometimes wear braids. It gets too far into the weeds.
quote:
don't think you can name 20 players on the level of BI or Brandon Roy "in a heartbeat" at all
Huh?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 1:39 pm to brmark70816
quote:Some of the stuff you post makes me wonder if you even follow the NBA. Most stars play into their 30s. Not sure why you think BI would be done by 30 unless you have a crystal ball showing you he will incur a serious injury.
I said Ingram would be done by 30. I'm holding to that. Maybe I'm wrong, but the odds are dramatically on my side. The wall comes for everyone.
Posted on 8/7/23 at 1:46 pm to brmark70816
quote:Yes, you do.
I don't know what this means.
quote:
It's a shrinking argument. This is happens everytime. Soon it'll be down to light skinned right handed players over 6'7 that sometimes wear braids. It gets too far into the weeds.
If you can't see the difference on journeyman players who are out of the league by 30 and a guy like Brandon Ingram, then let's be 100% honest, you aren't even trying to have a logical debate right now, right?
This idea you keep replying with that you have no idea what it means to say a "player like BI" is just another example of you not even trying to understand the difference between a dude like BI and a dude that was the 58th pick in the draft in 2019 who played 2 years then was out of the league. You truly don't understand the difference between those 2 players, really?
quote:I can just repeat it, you can't name 20 players that were on the level of BI and Brandon Roy that were out of the league due to injury before 30 "in a heartbeat." In fact, your heartbeat is up, the moment passed.
Huh?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 1:47 pm to NOSHAU
quote:What does that even mean? How do I distinguish from a star and a journeyman? You just can't..soon you'll be asking me for players who wore blue jerseys that averaged 18.7ppg on Tuesdays in December!
Most stars play into their 30s
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:06 pm to NOSHAU
quote:
Not sure why you think BI would be done by 30 unless you have a crystal ball showing you he will incur a serious injury.
He had a career threatening condition before he came here. He has progressively missed more games each season to the point that last year was non-qualifiable.
quote:
Most stars play into their 30s.
I don't view him as a "star". He's a very good player. Definitely not a max player. He's a borderline 2nd option, probably more of a 3rd. He's putting up big offensive numbers when Zion is out on a .500ish team.
IMO, Stars are franchise players, not supporting ones..
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:21 pm to brmark70816
quote:
But the numbers are massively on my side.
quote:Are you stating that most "very good players" retire before 30?
He's a very good player.
quote:Sounds like you've found a way to judge what type of player BI is, glad we're able to get that done.
He's a borderline 2nd option, probably more of a 3rd.
So I'll ask again, what % of "borderline 2nd option, probably more of a 3rd" players do you think are retiring before 30?
I'm trying to understand how you think the numbers are massively in your favor here.
This post was edited on 8/7/23 at 2:22 pm
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:22 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I'll go straight to injuries (Brandon Roy) and I can give you 20 in a heartbeat.
so are you telling me you are just assuming BI will have a career ending injury in the next few years?
quote:
Or I can go with former "stars" that were journeyman in their late 20s (Granger, Ellis, Arenas). That'd be dozens more.
Danny Granger isn't a journeyman. He had a debilitating knee injury in the 2012 season, his last season doing anything positive as an nba player. he was never healthy again.
Gilbert Arenas was the same way. He played in 15 games in 08' and 09' b/c of a knee injury and was never the same again.
Monte Ellis was an extremely inefficient chucker, but he also had his career ended early b/c of multiple injury issues to his knee and ankle, just like the other two silly examples you gave.
so basically your telling us BI is going to get a serious career ending injury in the near future that will force him to retire by age 30?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:24 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:From what I gather, he's not guaranteeing that but he IS saying the numbers are "massively in his favor" that something like that will happen.
so basically your telling us BI is going to get a serious career ending injury in the near future that will force him to retire by age 30?
I'm trying to determine if he's saying that the overwhelming majority of borderline #2 but probably #3 options retire before 30, because that would be the only way the numbers could massively be in his favor.
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:32 pm to shel311
The craziest thing is B.I.'s game is exactly what most players that play into their mid 30s have.
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:43 pm to shel311
quote:
trying to determine if he's saying that the overwhelming majority of borderline #2 but probably #3 options retire before 30, because that would be the only way the numbers could massively be in his favor.
You are very good at creating a narrative without ever having to take a direct stand or answer any questions. So I'll ask you..
Is Ingram in his prime now?
If not, when do you think it will start?
How long will it last?
Can you answer those without trying to turn it back on me?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 2:50 pm to brmark70816
quote:I'm literally using your direct quotes to try and understand what you're saying, what are you talking about?
You are very good at creating a narrative
You said BI is a very good player, borderline #2 probably #3.
You also said the numbers are massively in your favor that he'll retire by 30.
I'll ask again, do the vast majority of very good, borderline #2 and probably #3 dudes retire before 30, yes or no? If no, how are the numbers massively in your favor? If yes, you're just wrong.
Don't try to talk about narratives or stands or whatever, we're talking about your exact words right now, nothing else.
quote:I mean, you still haven't addressed the above where your posts are contradicting each other, so it seems odd that you're changing the subject and asking me not to talk about your contradictory posts, but I'll answer anyway.
Can you answer those without trying to turn it back on me?
quote:He's entering now, it'll probably last about 3-4 years. Cool, now back to the above, how are the numbers massively in your favor that he'll retire by 30 when players of the caliber of BI that YOU created don't typically retire before 30?
Is Ingram in his prime now?
If not, when do you think it will start?
How long will it last?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 3:06 pm to shel311
quote:
He's entering now, it'll probably last about 3-4 years.
Thank you. So even you agree his prime will be over before he hits 30. I am very happy we got that agreed to and established.
quote:
You also said the numbers are massively in your favor that he'll retire by 30.
I did. I have covered this before. It's rare for a NBA player to make it into his 30s. Even less are actually effective players, much less contributors or starters. I don't care if they make a roster or are a role player. By any measurable scale, the vast majority are done by that point.
quote:
you still haven't addressed the above where your posts are contradicting each other, so it seems odd that you're changing the subject and asking me not to talk about your contradictory posts, but I'll answer anyway.
I'm carrying the water in this thread. I have been the only one answering questions. I appreciate you joining in.
quote:
how are the numbers massively in your favor that he'll retire by 30 when players of the caliber of BI that YOU created don't typically retire before 30
You are seriously trying to beat me down with a literal interpretation. Fine, maybe he'll make 31 or 32. Is that better?
Posted on 8/7/23 at 3:14 pm to brmark70816
quote:It's wild to me that you don't understand that good players don't retire before 30 very often.
You are seriously trying to beat me down with a literal interpretation
I just can't fathom why you're arguing against it.
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