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Message
re: BI taking over in all phases
Posted on 12/5/23 at 8:54 am to shel311
Posted on 12/5/23 at 8:54 am to shel311
quote:
the best we've seen this team play in the last 5 years was when BI was not playing
quote:
Since the meeting, the Pelicans own a 127.6 offensive rating in the 152 minutes the two have played together, with a 106.1 defensive rating. Both would lead the NBA.
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Posted on 12/5/23 at 9:08 am to yaboidarrell
He was shooting like he was late on child support payments last night.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 12:16 pm to bonethug0180
BI’s ceiling isn’t the problem, it’s his floor. both the people who celebrate him after good games and trash him after bad ones are right in a way. his inconsistency is what needs to be criticized when deciding on giving him $300M or not
when he’s getting to his spots and making shots, his playmaking and passing open up things for the team, and he buys in on defense and on the glass.
when he’s not getting to his spots and making shots, he’s turning the ball over and careless on defense and the boards.
great players who demand $300M salaries find ways to impact that game even when shots aren’t falling. this isn’t an unfixable problem for BI, but he needs to play with more consistency or that contract will destroy this teams ceiling
when he’s getting to his spots and making shots, his playmaking and passing open up things for the team, and he buys in on defense and on the glass.
when he’s not getting to his spots and making shots, he’s turning the ball over and careless on defense and the boards.
great players who demand $300M salaries find ways to impact that game even when shots aren’t falling. this isn’t an unfixable problem for BI, but he needs to play with more consistency or that contract will destroy this teams ceiling
Posted on 12/5/23 at 12:30 pm to Gabe Rippen
quote:To put this more succinctly, it's not the ceiling or the floor, his issue is what he actually is. You are what you consistently do.
BI’s ceiling isn’t the problem, it’s his floor. both the people who celebrate him after good games and trash him after bad ones are right in a way. his inconsistency is what needs to be criticized when deciding on giving him $300M or not
I have zero idea why when BI has a good game, the folks come pouring in to Pels Talk taking trash. No one has ever argued BI can't have a good game, those folks make no sense.
The issue is the consistency. He doesn't consistently play or shoot well. He's a volume shooter. If you're a volume shooter who is inefficient, you're gonna need other elite skills to be worth a max contract and to be a #2 on this team, which he doesn't have.
quote:Made my replies before I got to the last part, but yep, you got there too
great players who demand $300M salaries find ways to impact that game even when shots aren’t falling. this isn’t an unfixable problem for BI, but he needs to play with more consistency or that contract will destroy this teams ceiling
I think the crux of the issue is those who think it's fixable vs those who don't. I think he is what he is at this point, it's year 8, he's given us all the reasons to believe that and I don't see the reasons to think he'll learn new elite skills or become a consistently efficient scorer.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 12:34 pm to shel311
quote:
If you're a volume shooter who is inefficient, you're gonna need other elite skills to be worth a max contract and to be a #2 on this team, which he doesn't have.
He has a career high in efg%. His 3pt% will improve, it just has to with volume changing.
Ingram falls in love with his mid range too much but it's deadly 15ft in. He's not taking many 18 footers. And his playmaking has to stay consistent and I think it will with guys like Trey and CJ getting back.
I just think it's going to take a full seasons evaluation to determine ingrams worth. Especially with this roster.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 12:38 pm to shel311
quote:
Let's give him $300 mil
What is the 300 million based on? Are you assuming he makes all-NBA?
Posted on 12/5/23 at 12:44 pm to mhasen1
quote:No, $300mil as I understand it is without making All NBA
What is the 300 million based on? Are you assuming he makes all-NBA?
Posted on 12/5/23 at 1:04 pm to shel311
It's as simple as this.
When BI hits shots, he's very good.
When he doesn't, he's not that good.
He can't impact the game in many other positive ways.
The problem is, the shots he takes are inefficient and there will be a significant number of games that he misses those exact same shots.
And it's not the same as say, Trey Murphy going 1 for 10 from 3. Trey generally takes wide open shots within the flow of the offense aka "good" shots.
BI takes bad shots that sometimes go in.
Sure, Zion might have an off game here and there, but he shoots high percentage shots mostly and his gravity will always be a plus.
If BI is clanging turn around fadeaway, not only is the offense going to stall, it's starting fast breaks for the other team.
When BI hits shots, he's very good.
When he doesn't, he's not that good.
He can't impact the game in many other positive ways.
The problem is, the shots he takes are inefficient and there will be a significant number of games that he misses those exact same shots.
And it's not the same as say, Trey Murphy going 1 for 10 from 3. Trey generally takes wide open shots within the flow of the offense aka "good" shots.
BI takes bad shots that sometimes go in.
Sure, Zion might have an off game here and there, but he shoots high percentage shots mostly and his gravity will always be a plus.
If BI is clanging turn around fadeaway, not only is the offense going to stall, it's starting fast breaks for the other team.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 1:07 pm to ghost2most
quote:I'm curious as to what parts of this do people disagree with
t's as simple as this.
When BI hits shots, he's very good.
When he doesn't, he's not that good.
He can't impact the game in many other positive ways.
The problem is, the shots he takes are inefficient and there will be a significant number of games that he misses those exact same shots.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 1:15 pm to shel311
You're not going to like this, but CJ is pretty much the same.
Last night he was money, but there are plenty games where his step backs or contested mid rangers make me cringe.
When they go in, great, but they're not high percentage shots.
Overall though, CJ has had much better shot selection this season.
Jonas is also the same. He should never shoot a fadeaway at 7 foot. He makes it sometimes but I hate that shot.
Last night he was money, but there are plenty games where his step backs or contested mid rangers make me cringe.
When they go in, great, but they're not high percentage shots.
Overall though, CJ has had much better shot selection this season.
Jonas is also the same. He should never shoot a fadeaway at 7 foot. He makes it sometimes but I hate that shot.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 1:19 pm to shel311
quote:
I think he is what he is at this point, it's year 8, he's given us all the reasons to believe that and I don't see the reasons to think he'll learn new elite skills or become a consistently efficient scorer.
i don't often agree with shel, but he's exactly right here.... at this point, you have enough of a history to see exactly what Ingram is and what his value is/can be to your future plans... some of us just happen to think that being he is at his apex, or very, very close to it, it's not good enough to warrant not only a huge salary, but also to keep younger options that very well may exceed Ingram's level of production and consistency...
This post was edited on 12/5/23 at 1:34 pm
Posted on 12/5/23 at 2:01 pm to ghost2most
quote:Nah, you're not entirely wrong, but I think the differences are your 3rd best player vs 2nd best player, CJ's contract vs the BI looming $300mil contract, and CJ's willingness and ability to shoot the 3 is huge too.
You're not going to like this, but CJ is pretty much the same.
I know this is an "if" but if CJ wasn't injured all last season, his scoring efficiency and pts/assists per 100 would basically mirror BI but he's no the #2 and closer.
Put it this way, I'd have all the same problems and concerns and thoughts to trade CJ if the team was built with CJ as the #2.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 3:54 pm to yaboidarrell
He plays well in high-leverage moments and gets better as the season progresses. Good to get a win against a good team that was gunning for the Pels with the national spotlight. Team, with BI and Zion getting rebounds and pushing transition is best. Herb, Jose, and Naji showing that dawg with their effort, and CJ/TM3 being super timely ..... Nice
Posted on 12/6/23 at 4:10 am to yaboidarrell
Posted on 12/6/23 at 7:36 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
win games when B.I. plays
He's a great player, when healthy. I would rather see what we could for him and invest $300 MM in the young core/draft picks we'd get in a trade
Posted on 12/6/23 at 7:50 am to mhasen1
quote:
What is the 300 million based on? Are you assuming he makes all-NBA?
Current projected contract is: 4yrs / 220mil
All NBA is: 5yrs/ 330mil
So we are looking at 4yr / 55mil or 5yr/ 65mil
No one is an “idiot” for having their concerns about giving out that contract. Especially knowing Herb/ Trey/ Hawkins/ Dyson will all be getting paid in 3/4 years.
I’m looking at this from a team point of view and not specifically just how BI has played. We could realistically gain another 1/2 young players + picks and still compete for the next 10+ years if he is traded.
We could have 60+ mil cap space in 2026 with BI/ CJ off the books. And that’s with already having Dyson, Hawkins, Trey, Jose, Naji, Zion…
Just saying you have to start thinking about things like that, especially if we don’t end up making a deep run this year.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 9:49 am to Dantheman504
quote:It's nonsensical fandom and an ability to think long term to think we ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO PAY BI $300mil, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a complete moron.
No one is an “idiot” for having their concerns about giving out that contract. Especially knowing Herb/ Trey/ Hawkins/ Dyson will all be getting paid in 3/4 years.
It's silly. It's not remotely a slam dunk thing we just have to do without thinking.
If we do, you can bet all these same dudes will be the posting and hating on our front office 3-4 years from now when Herb or Dyson or Herb AND Dyson and other dudes are no longer on the team and we have wayyyyyyyy less depth than we do now without any thought that these conversations we're having today and those who aren't so quick to want to give BI $300mil are thinking about those exact long term ramifications.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 9:54 am to shel311
quote:
ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO PAY BI $300mil
Can you stop with this? Hes only getting 300 if he makes an all nba team, which is highly unlikely.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 9:57 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Can you stop with this? Hes only getting 300 if he makes an all nba team
All NBA is 5/350 at 35% of cap. No All NBA is 5/300, 30% of cap.
$171mil is the potential cap number BI's 1st year. Take 30% of $171mil and escalate 8% per year.
Year 1: 51.3
Year 2: 55.4
Year 3: 59.8
Year 4: 64.6
Year 5: 69.8
So maybe you were right, it's not $300mil. It's $301mil
This post was edited on 12/6/23 at 10:00 am
Posted on 12/6/23 at 10:07 am to shel311
quote:
That makes sense for both sides, and the report says there is no “anxiety” over the contract situation. In Ingram’s case, waiting means he can sign a longer and more possibly lucrative extension next summer — a max for him next summer would be four years, roughly $221 million. That number would climb if Ingram were to make an All-NBA team and qualify for a supermax of 35% of the salary cap, although the last time Ingram played in 65 games in a season — the new qualifying threshold for postseason awards — was his rookie season.
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