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Posted on 2/7/18 at 6:25 pm to ohiovol
quote:
The lack of respect for D&D is laughable.
Dude.
The only good bits in GOT are the Martin parts.
The show went off the rails as soon as they ran out of his material, and got creative.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 6:33 pm to KingSlayer
quote:
The narrative that D&D are hacks and aren't nearly as good as GRRM is just pathetic and silly. They have to write and produce a full season of the largest most epic tv show in history every year.
Lazy trope filled writing is lazy trope filled writing.
They don't have any excuses.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 6:43 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
The only good bits in GOT are the Martin parts.
The show went off the rails as soon as they ran out of his material, and got creative.
Season 6 save for Jaime’s storyline, they were working on their own. Winds of Winter I’m pretty sure is all them (no way in hell Tommen intentionally kills himself in the books), and it was pretty solid.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 6:53 pm to OMLandshark
We’re going to have to disagree on that.
I thought it was awful, and the battle of the bastards is probably the best example of that.
They use spectacle to paper over bad writing.
I thought it was awful, and the battle of the bastards is probably the best example of that.
They use spectacle to paper over bad writing.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 6:54 pm to saintkenn
Need old republic trilogy full of sith
Posted on 2/7/18 at 6:58 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
I thought it was awful, and the battle of the bastards is probably the best example of that.
And what was bad about that episode? Don't get me wrong, I think Blackwater is better, but I still think BotB was triumphant filmmaking.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 7:04 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
I thought it was awful, and the battle of the bastards is probably the best example of that.
They use spectacle to paper over bad writing.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 7:05 pm to Cow Drogo
quote:
Need old republic trilogy full of sith
I think there’s a chance. Iger said the D&D were interested in a particular period in Star Wars lore.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 7:16 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
And what was bad about that episode? Don't get me wrong, I think Blackwater is better, but I still think BotB was triumphant filmmaking.
It was technically very proficient. From camera work, to staging, and costumes.
One of things that makes Martin a great writer, is that he's ruthless about his characters. They always do what it's in their nature. That's hard, from a writers perspective, because it means you can't take shortcuts. You can't cheat, and do the easy thing.
That's one of the biggest differences between Martin and D&D, especially in these last few seasons. They've continued to throw their hands up in the air, and do the lazy thing, rather than be true to their characters.
The battle is a great example of that. You have Jon abandon all wisdom, and charge an enemy that greatly outnumbers him? That's bad B movie work. It's just not in his nature. It's bad read on his character, and it's a decision seemingly driven by a desire to create spectacle, and drama.
But it doesn't because it violates the rules they've set out for Jon earlier in the series. Because it's not how we expect him to act, it robs the sequence of drama.
I would also point to how they staged that, for example the shot of Jon drowning. They chose to do that, not because it made sense in the context of the story, but because they thought it would look cool.
That's hackery.
quote:
but I still think BotB was triumphant filmmaking.
I read a lot, I have since I was young, and I come from family of writers, among other things, so I'm pretty ruthless.
With what you've said, I don't think I can persuade you, but from a technical angle, yeah, they're just not very good. And it's because they play fast and loose with their characters.
This post was edited on 2/7/18 at 7:21 pm
Posted on 2/7/18 at 7:23 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:I agree with this.
It was technically very proficient. From camera work, to staging, and costumes.
One of things that makes Martin a great writer, is that he's ruthless about his characters. They always do what it's in their nature. That's hard, from a writers perspective, because it means you can't take shortcuts. You can't cheat, and do the easy thing.
That's one of the biggest differences between Martin and D&D, especially in these last few seasons. They've continued to throw their hands up in the air, and do the lazy thing, rather than be true to their characters.
The battle is a great example of that. You have Jon abandon all wisdom, and charge an enemy that greatly outnumbers him? That's bad B movie work. It's just not in his nature. It's bad read on his character, and it's a decision seemingly driven by a desire to create spectacle, and drama.
But it doesn't because it violates the rules they've set out for Jon earlier in the series. Because it's not how we expect him to act, it robs the sequence of drama.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 7:28 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
You have Jon abandon all wisdom, and charge an enemy that greatly outnumbers him? That's bad B movie work. It's just not in his nature. It's bad read on his character, and it's a decision seemingly driven by a desire to create spectacle, and drama.
Did you read "A Dance with Dragons"? Ramsey (or whoever wrote the Pink Letter) was able to provoke Jon into doing something stupid and provoke a mutiny to save Arya. What Jon did there is in character to both the book and show.
quote:
But it doesn't because it violates the rules they've set out for Jon earlier in the series. Because it's not how we expect him to act, it robs the sequence of drama.
Well, yeah, because his sibling is in mortal danger. When your loved ones are in mortal peril, you tend to do stupid things you wouldn't do normally. If it was a random peasant, sure Jon would have stayed his ground and let the peasant come to him.
quote:
I would also point to how they staged that, for example the shot of Jon drowning. They chose to do that, not because it made sense in the context of the story, but because they thought it would look cool.
I don't think it's smart for Jon to stay at the front lines there. Sure he risked getting trampled, but that's just probably what would have happened regardless.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 7:38 pm to saintkenn
quote:The first thing I thought with that, is that a bunch of the protagonists are going to die
Star Wars getting the GoT treatment
I guess technically they HAVE, if you count the OT appearances.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 8:13 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Did you read "A Dance with Dragons"? Ramsey (or whoever wrote the Pink Letter) was able to provoke Jon into doing something stupid and provoke a mutiny to save Arya. What Jon did there is in character to both the book and show.
That's not a great comparison.
Jon is a political novice, which is what that scene exposes. He's so sure of himself, so sure of his course, that he's incapable of introspection. He doesn't realize that there are people who are violently opposed to him, that believe he's wrong, with all of their being.
It's a tragic scene, because of that. Because his critics, they're aren't wrong.
What happens in BOB, is that he risks his life, and his entire army, for someone who's already dead. And from what we know of Jon, we know that he should understand that.
Making matters worse, it doesn't work, and he destroys his army. Killing thousands of his own men.
The only silver lining, is that Vale appears to bale him out. But that in turn only makes his character weaker. He's not a hero, he's fool who needs other people to save him.
That's not the Jon we know.
What would make more sense, and what would be more dramatic, would be if he did nothing. Because that would be a huge sacrifice... surrendering a family member for the greater good. It's also something, as horrible as it would be, that would be in keeping with his character.
Think of how he betrayed the wildlings and the women he loved, to save his brothers on the wall.
quote:
Well, yeah, because his sibling is in mortal danger. When your loved ones are in mortal peril, you tend to do stupid things you wouldn't do normally. If it was a random peasant, sure Jon would have stayed his ground and let the peasant come to him.
Yet he was strong enough to leave Ygritte.
quote:
I don't think it's smart for Jon to stay at the front lines there. Sure he risked getting trampled, but that's just probably what would have happened regardless.
They did that because it looked "cool."
Everything about that scene was predicated on looking cool.
This post was edited on 2/7/18 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 2/7/18 at 9:48 pm to Lima Whiskey
Still blown away people worship everything from Martin and criticize the showrunners for everything.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 10:01 pm to ohiovol
Its not personal, it’s just a television show.
This post was edited on 2/7/18 at 10:02 pm
Posted on 2/7/18 at 10:13 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Its not personal, it’s just a television show.
There are things to criticize. Especially in season 7. It’s just comical when people pretend the show was great when it was book material and awful afterwards. That’s just an overly simplistic attitude that greatly underrates the quality of seasons 5-7 and vastly overrates the quality of of the last two books, as well as other poor decisions made in the book series.
This post was edited on 2/7/18 at 10:18 pm
Posted on 2/7/18 at 10:20 pm to ohiovol
quote:
It’s just comical when people pretend the show was great
It was really good for a while there.
quote:
awful afterwards.
I don’t know, I think it’s pretty easy to pick holes in the last few seasons.
The critics have certainly argued that the show is on its decline.
For me, the last really great episode was Hardome, which admittedly deviated from the books, but worked beautifully.
Posted on 2/7/18 at 10:24 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
I don’t know, I think it’s pretty easy to pick holes in the last few seasons.
It’s easy to pick holes in just about any TV series except The Wire and The Sopranos, and those stories are far less ambitious.
Posted on 2/8/18 at 1:15 am to ohiovol
quote:
It’s easy to pick holes in just about any TV series except The Wire and The Sopranos, and those stories are far less ambitious.
Well that's the thing. There's nothing ambitious about how they're writing it now.
Just compare early Littlefinger, who is complicated, who is ambiguous, to the character we seen in the last season who is nothing more than a mustache twirling villain.
That all goes back to a lack of ambition, and giving up on complexity.
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