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re: OFFICIAL - The Dark Knight Rises Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:01 am to Freauxzen
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:01 am to Freauxzen
quote:
I liked her presence, but not her dialog. It was too cheesy.
Well, what's Catwoman without some cheesy wisecracks? They never got to the point of making cat and pussy jokes, so I was never bothered by her puns.
1
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:05 am to Prominentwon
quote:
because that's what I go into summer blockbusters looking for.....
It has nothing to do with "going to a movie just for the editing," but the story is disjointed and often jumps too quickly and too far in time. It's disorienting when experiencing the narrative. ANd it removed me from the film more often than not.
Now, I will admit, I wasn't a fan of my seats either (a Monday night showing still packed? Bollocks).
There's something natural about good editing that makes the story flow and draw you in.
TDKR was more a series of brief experiences linked together by an overall story, rather than being a single flowing piece.
In short:
TDKR: Experience this Bruce Wayne moment. Then this one 12 hours later. Then this Batman moment 6 hours later. Then this one 22 days later. Then this Bane moment. And this one. And this one.
BB: Experience this story about Bruce Wayne.
I know I'm being picky about it, what movie isn't a series of moments? But it just seemed far TOO apparent in this movie. And this is coming from the guy who has given us two of the most brilliantly edited films in modern times, possibly of all time. Nolan juggled telling the same story forwards and backwards at the same time, no small feat. Which yes, makes TDKR a weak Nolan film.
This post was edited on 7/31/12 at 9:31 am
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:06 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Well, what's Catwoman without some cheesy wisecracks?
Those don't fill Nolan's super serious, realistic world. No one talks like that.
On the other hand, Alfred's jokes always make sense. Maybe it's the British accent.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:11 am to Freauxzen
quote:
TDKR was more a series of brief experiences linked together by an overall story, rather than being a single flowing piece.
As much as I like the film... I do have to agree with this. I don't really see a three act structure here. It just goes on and accelerates without stop til the end. Its kinda hard to pinpoint when the first act ends and the second begins. Was it when Batman first turns up, or when Bane breaks the Bat, or when Bane blows the city to hell. 3rd act's start is easy to pinpoint (and its glorious), but not the other two.
The Dark Knight, each act is very very clear. But TDK gets close to shitting the bed in the third act. That's where TDKR is at it's best. All of it built to something great, which makes me naturally more forgiving of it.
This post was edited on 7/31/12 at 9:23 am
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:13 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Those don't fill Nolan's super serious, realistic world. No one talks like that.
Well, a jewel thief would never, ever wear high heels either. I think they got the essence of the character perfectly and shockingly made it work in a war film.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:19 am to OMLandshark
quote:
As much as I like the film... I do have to agree with this. I don't really see a three act structure here. It just goes on and accelerates without stop til the end. Its kinda hard to pinpoint when the first act ends and the second begins. Was it when Batman first turns up, or when Batman breaks the Bat, or when Bane blows the city to hell. 3rd act's start is easy to pinpoint (and its glorious), but not the other two.
The Dark Knight, each act is very very clear. But TDK gets close to shitting the bed in the third act. That's where TDKR is at it's best. All of it built to something great, which makes me naturally more forgiving of it.
Exactly.
And the ends don't justify the means for me. That's why I'm a little apprehensive to say that it is a great film.
I promise, I'm giving it another watch soon.
Also, I will be writing a longer piece about my issues, just probably not today.
This post was edited on 7/31/12 at 9:21 am
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:47 am to Freauxzen
First Act ends with Bane's defeat of Batman in the sewer.
Second Act ends with Bruce Wayne climbing out of the pit.
I thought that was pretty clear.
Second Act ends with Bruce Wayne climbing out of the pit.
I thought that was pretty clear.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 9:51 am to RollTide1987
quote:
First Act ends with Bane's defeat of Batman in the sewer.
Why is that? It just seems to accelerate to the point of Batman crawling out of the pit. Why wouldn't have been when Bane first attacked the stock market and Bruce's life starts a downward spiral? Its not clear.
TDK is clear:
1st act ends when Joker first kills that fake Batman and starts his plan.
2nd act ends with Harvey's scaring and Rachel's death.
Pretty clear that those completely change the tone of what's going on.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 10:00 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Pretty clear that those completely change the tone of what's going on.
I think there's a HUGE change in tone after Bane breaks Batman over his knee. That tone changes again when Bruce climbs out of the pit at the end of Act II.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 10:11 am to Freauxzen
I still don't get the crappy editing comment(s); not just you, there have been a few people saying this. Seems to you it was too much jumping backwards in time and it being hard to follow the timeline? Am I reading that correct?
I thought that given how many he almost had to do, it was done quite well. When they went to lucious upstairs at that building, they said that the bomb would go off in 50(?) days. So it allowed for time progression for Wayne to heal/develop his story in the pit. Then when Bane gave his speech outside of the prison it was showing days or possibly weeks in advance. He's speaking and its also showing scenes of future events; like him standing in the court room listening to judgements. I never lost track of the time frame nor was it confusing or jumbled together. That's just me though.
I thought that given how many he almost had to do, it was done quite well. When they went to lucious upstairs at that building, they said that the bomb would go off in 50(?) days. So it allowed for time progression for Wayne to heal/develop his story in the pit. Then when Bane gave his speech outside of the prison it was showing days or possibly weeks in advance. He's speaking and its also showing scenes of future events; like him standing in the court room listening to judgements. I never lost track of the time frame nor was it confusing or jumbled together. That's just me though.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 11:27 am to iwyLSUiwy
There was actually a pretty bad editing gaffe toward the beginning of The Dark Knight. In the scene where Batman ruins the drug deal between the Chechen and Scarecrow, the editing error occurs during the "Loiter, Intimidate" section of the scene where the Tumbler blows crap up.
When the Tumbler is just sitting there, you can clearly see the Chechen sitting in the car, watching his men stare the Tumbler down. Then, when the Tumbler blows up a nearby car, you can see the Chechen backing out of his parking space and hitting the road.
However, during the ensuing fight scene between Batman, the fake Batmen, and the Chechen's henchmen, you see a quick shot of the Chechen opening the door to his SUV and then another quick shot of the Chechen reversing out of the parking lot once again.
Despite that pretty big gaffe in continuity, Lee Smith was still nominated for Best Film Editing at the Oscars.
When the Tumbler is just sitting there, you can clearly see the Chechen sitting in the car, watching his men stare the Tumbler down. Then, when the Tumbler blows up a nearby car, you can see the Chechen backing out of his parking space and hitting the road.
However, during the ensuing fight scene between Batman, the fake Batmen, and the Chechen's henchmen, you see a quick shot of the Chechen opening the door to his SUV and then another quick shot of the Chechen reversing out of the parking lot once again.
Despite that pretty big gaffe in continuity, Lee Smith was still nominated for Best Film Editing at the Oscars.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 3:15 pm to RollTide1987
Biggest problem I had...Do the Gotham Rogues suck that bad that they can't fill a stadium? That was pathetic. Would drafting JJ help?
Posted on 7/31/12 at 4:26 pm to Joe
quote:
So, my buddy thinks he died, and that was Alfred's dream.
It never even crossed my mind that it was open to interpretation. I thought he was alive.
What'd everyone else think?
Every time Alfred went to the place he hoped he would see Bruce. But every time it was like it showed in the movie, it turned out to be some random dude. In the final scene he actually saw Bruce. Different from every time before that. AND Selina Kyle was with him this time. She wasn't on the plane and didn't die. So it wasn't "odd" that she was there.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 4:38 pm to iwyLSUiwy
I watched it again last night in IMAX and this has been said before I am sure, but Bruce Wayne in the Nolan trilogy is kind of an emotional pussy. His motivation or lack thereof is completely centered around women, never more abundantly clear than TDKR.
The God Damn Batman is self motivated.
The God Damn Batman is self motivated.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 4:47 pm to iwyLSUiwy
I'm not reading thru 80+ pages to see if its been asked, but...
Did Lucious Fox borrow the refrigerator from Indiana Jones and build it into the cockpit to make it nuclear-bomb-proof? Maybe the bomb blast shot him all the way across the ocean to Europe in his lead-lined 1950's escape pod made by Westinghouse
Did Lucious Fox borrow the refrigerator from Indiana Jones and build it into the cockpit to make it nuclear-bomb-proof? Maybe the bomb blast shot him all the way across the ocean to Europe in his lead-lined 1950's escape pod made by Westinghouse
Posted on 7/31/12 at 5:53 pm to stuckintexas
Right?
Posted on 7/31/12 at 6:07 pm to stuckintexas
#1 Don't ever question Lucious Fox. He could make it Chuck Norris proof.
#2 they went the auto pilot rout. That's why Lucious got excited when he found out it was fixed 6 months earlier. So he coasted that think in there and did something magical to dodge the bomb.
#3 How would you rate it? Compared to the first two.
#2 they went the auto pilot rout. That's why Lucious got excited when he found out it was fixed 6 months earlier. So he coasted that think in there and did something magical to dodge the bomb.
#3 How would you rate it? Compared to the first two.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 8:00 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
I still don't get the crappy editing comment(s); not just you, there have been a few people saying this. Seems to you it was too much jumping backwards in time and it being hard to follow the timeline? Am I reading that correct?
Na. I followed the timeline fine, it was just...jolting me in and out of the timeline. It was unnatural.
Posted on 7/31/12 at 8:18 pm to Freauxzen
Ok I have a little time for two posts, probably long.
Here's my beef:
1. Batman - Not Enough
In a trilogy about the birth, acceptance, and release of the Batman symbol. There just wasn't enough Batman. And I don't even mean that in a physical sense, I mean that in a literal sense. Even the Batman we saw wasn't really Batman. I don't think the "crippled" Batman at that point played out well at all. I don't think he was smart enough, or a detective. The only truly "outsmarting" thing he did was fix the autopilot and not tell anyone. How did he beat Bane? By just punching him (and he didn't even beat Bane, and he was outsmarted by someone else). The only other Batman feature he revealed was his resolve.
2. Bane and Talia - Too much and Not Enough
So Bane loves eloquent prose. He loves to preach from the pulpit, talking big, being big, and then...
Naaaa. he just shuts up because of a woman. The whole relationship, when revealed (and obviously any Batman fan knew what was going on before) was just unrealistic. It also made almost everything that he said irrelevant. If he was THAT fervent in everything he said, he would have ripped off Talia's head and continued on his badass way. If he was THAT devoted to Talia he would have given up his dreams and gone after Batman. They didn't tie their desires well enough. Talia was also revealed FAR too late in the movie, it made everything about her, her motives, Bane and Bane's motives a flash in the pan. I mean, what was MORE important, killing Bats or destroying Gotham?
3. Selina and John - Too much
Too much in that, in one new movie we got 2 new sidekicks. That means we couldn't spend enough screen time on either one, and just get very simple stories. Seriously John? Batman says "Save as many people as you can," and you save one bus of people? The only thing Catwoman existed for was to be with Wayne at the end, almost for no believable reason. And her entire character consisted of saying one thing and doing another, which was just rehashed over and over again. I actually liked both characters, Blake more than Kyle, but just didn't get enough of one or the other. It was all very superficial.
4. Alfred - Not enough. Nuff said.
5. The fusion bomb - Unobtanium
Oh Nolan, someone who dissects the perils of good and evil with such, why do something so....generic? Gone are the awesome cries of the Joker's what do people do when all hope is lost? Even after all of Bane's talking about Gotham crawling over each other for the light WE NEVER SEE IT. I just wanted to make an unobtanium joke. No it's not that bad, but it seems it became a CRUTCH for Nolan's writing to hobble on. It's not a bad mechanic, it was just used poorly. And not to it's full effect.
6. The editing -
See above, I've explained my point. All of the story they crammed in just made the editing very unnatural.
So what do you do?
Here's my beef:
1. Batman - Not Enough
In a trilogy about the birth, acceptance, and release of the Batman symbol. There just wasn't enough Batman. And I don't even mean that in a physical sense, I mean that in a literal sense. Even the Batman we saw wasn't really Batman. I don't think the "crippled" Batman at that point played out well at all. I don't think he was smart enough, or a detective. The only truly "outsmarting" thing he did was fix the autopilot and not tell anyone. How did he beat Bane? By just punching him (and he didn't even beat Bane, and he was outsmarted by someone else). The only other Batman feature he revealed was his resolve.
2. Bane and Talia - Too much and Not Enough
So Bane loves eloquent prose. He loves to preach from the pulpit, talking big, being big, and then...
Naaaa. he just shuts up because of a woman. The whole relationship, when revealed (and obviously any Batman fan knew what was going on before) was just unrealistic. It also made almost everything that he said irrelevant. If he was THAT fervent in everything he said, he would have ripped off Talia's head and continued on his badass way. If he was THAT devoted to Talia he would have given up his dreams and gone after Batman. They didn't tie their desires well enough. Talia was also revealed FAR too late in the movie, it made everything about her, her motives, Bane and Bane's motives a flash in the pan. I mean, what was MORE important, killing Bats or destroying Gotham?
3. Selina and John - Too much
Too much in that, in one new movie we got 2 new sidekicks. That means we couldn't spend enough screen time on either one, and just get very simple stories. Seriously John? Batman says "Save as many people as you can," and you save one bus of people? The only thing Catwoman existed for was to be with Wayne at the end, almost for no believable reason. And her entire character consisted of saying one thing and doing another, which was just rehashed over and over again. I actually liked both characters, Blake more than Kyle, but just didn't get enough of one or the other. It was all very superficial.
4. Alfred - Not enough. Nuff said.
5. The fusion bomb - Unobtanium
Oh Nolan, someone who dissects the perils of good and evil with such, why do something so....generic? Gone are the awesome cries of the Joker's what do people do when all hope is lost? Even after all of Bane's talking about Gotham crawling over each other for the light WE NEVER SEE IT. I just wanted to make an unobtanium joke. No it's not that bad, but it seems it became a CRUTCH for Nolan's writing to hobble on. It's not a bad mechanic, it was just used poorly. And not to it's full effect.
6. The editing -
See above, I've explained my point. All of the story they crammed in just made the editing very unnatural.
So what do you do?
This post was edited on 7/31/12 at 8:24 pm
Posted on 7/31/12 at 8:36 pm to Freauxzen
This is what I would have done (but of course I'm not making multi-million dollar movies, so take my opinion with a grain of salt).
If Nolan really wanted to serve the character his story, and the ideas, he needed a different structure. If he really wanted to take a leap...his leap should have come mid film. THAT would have been daring. Starting the movie 8 years later was really problematic.
1. TDKR starts 3-5 years after TDK. Batman is winding down. He's starting to feel his limits. A new criminal come to Gotham. Bane. He's riling up the poor people, he's a Robin Hood.
2. At the same time, we meet Miranda Tate and one of John Blake or Selina Kyle (take your pick). Miranda is working her way up the research ladder with her fusion research. Selina or Kyle are doing their TDKR thing (little change to their overall story, just spend more time on ONE). Maybe you see John's home, his struggle with anger. Or maybe we get more of Selina's situation. Maybe she has a dying mother? I don't know, flesh them out.
4. More Batman chasing Bane. Maybe coming into contact with another minor villain. But Bane is chaotic, his motives, other than giving to the poor, are unclear.
5. Keep the same overall story, but at the end of Act 1, Bane breaks Batman's back. There's no prison, nothing. It's publicized, Wayne goes into hiding. Here we get crippled Wayne. We see it. It affects the actual story.
6. CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE:
A) If you selected John Blake, honestly, let him take the mantle, not wear the costume, but EVEN IF YOU KEEP HIS intuiting Wayne as Batman, have him steal some tech and be Batman. Maybe he does the BB kevlar and mask. He doesn't need to do it long, but with Gotham spinning out of control, someone has to do something. his allows for More Alfred and More Gordon.
B) If you chose Selina Kyle, show her struggles with stealing for herself, and watching Bane rally the poor army. Then bring in her working for Bane and infiltrating his hideout only to find the truth.
7. All the while, Wayne is dealing with a failing Wayne Corp, and the rising research of Miranda Tate....
FAST FORWARD 3 years later...
8. Blake is having trouble taking over for Batman or Selina is finally a socialite/burglar, Wayne is cranky, holed up in his East wing, Miranda Tate is a research superstar, and Bane has....disappeared.(Alfred is Alfred, Gordon is Gordon, Lucius is Lucius).
THEN something happens, we see Miranda take the Talia mantle Bane, reappers, motives and plans are unveiled, Gotham is seiged, Blake or Selina are more involved with the story, Batman comes back.
Wayne has been healing all along, although cranky, and is stronger than he thought. Doesn't take him long to recharge.
Assault Gotham. Bomb. Bullets. Fists. Pfisterizing scenes. Done.
Anyways, I fast forwarded and don't feel like typing anymore. The big things are:
1. More Batman
2. Choose your own adventure: John or Selina - If John is more important, go with the actual sidekick/replacement early on. If Selina is, go with her personal story, and watch it unfold more clearly.
3. Choose your own adventure: Bane or Talia - If Bane is Talia's servant, bring his aspirations down a notch, maybe he just wants to rally the downtrodden. If Bane is the lead, let them come to a head and maybe fight it out (Talia doesn't always hate Wayne, maybe Bane WAS the brains).
NOTE: This isn't the only way, or the best way, but there were some major flaws that really needed fixing. Streamline the story, clear up some characters and give Batman more to do.
If Nolan really wanted to serve the character his story, and the ideas, he needed a different structure. If he really wanted to take a leap...his leap should have come mid film. THAT would have been daring. Starting the movie 8 years later was really problematic.
1. TDKR starts 3-5 years after TDK. Batman is winding down. He's starting to feel his limits. A new criminal come to Gotham. Bane. He's riling up the poor people, he's a Robin Hood.
2. At the same time, we meet Miranda Tate and one of John Blake or Selina Kyle (take your pick). Miranda is working her way up the research ladder with her fusion research. Selina or Kyle are doing their TDKR thing (little change to their overall story, just spend more time on ONE). Maybe you see John's home, his struggle with anger. Or maybe we get more of Selina's situation. Maybe she has a dying mother? I don't know, flesh them out.
4. More Batman chasing Bane. Maybe coming into contact with another minor villain. But Bane is chaotic, his motives, other than giving to the poor, are unclear.
5. Keep the same overall story, but at the end of Act 1, Bane breaks Batman's back. There's no prison, nothing. It's publicized, Wayne goes into hiding. Here we get crippled Wayne. We see it. It affects the actual story.
6. CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE:
A) If you selected John Blake, honestly, let him take the mantle, not wear the costume, but EVEN IF YOU KEEP HIS intuiting Wayne as Batman, have him steal some tech and be Batman. Maybe he does the BB kevlar and mask. He doesn't need to do it long, but with Gotham spinning out of control, someone has to do something. his allows for More Alfred and More Gordon.
B) If you chose Selina Kyle, show her struggles with stealing for herself, and watching Bane rally the poor army. Then bring in her working for Bane and infiltrating his hideout only to find the truth.
7. All the while, Wayne is dealing with a failing Wayne Corp, and the rising research of Miranda Tate....
FAST FORWARD 3 years later...
8. Blake is having trouble taking over for Batman or Selina is finally a socialite/burglar, Wayne is cranky, holed up in his East wing, Miranda Tate is a research superstar, and Bane has....disappeared.(Alfred is Alfred, Gordon is Gordon, Lucius is Lucius).
THEN something happens, we see Miranda take the Talia mantle Bane, reappers, motives and plans are unveiled, Gotham is seiged, Blake or Selina are more involved with the story, Batman comes back.
Wayne has been healing all along, although cranky, and is stronger than he thought. Doesn't take him long to recharge.
Assault Gotham. Bomb. Bullets. Fists. Pfisterizing scenes. Done.
Anyways, I fast forwarded and don't feel like typing anymore. The big things are:
1. More Batman
2. Choose your own adventure: John or Selina - If John is more important, go with the actual sidekick/replacement early on. If Selina is, go with her personal story, and watch it unfold more clearly.
3. Choose your own adventure: Bane or Talia - If Bane is Talia's servant, bring his aspirations down a notch, maybe he just wants to rally the downtrodden. If Bane is the lead, let them come to a head and maybe fight it out (Talia doesn't always hate Wayne, maybe Bane WAS the brains).
NOTE: This isn't the only way, or the best way, but there were some major flaws that really needed fixing. Streamline the story, clear up some characters and give Batman more to do.
This post was edited on 7/31/12 at 8:40 pm
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