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Message
re: New Netflix docu-series "Making a Murderer" (Spoilers)
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:09 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:09 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I don't care if you amend it or not, I'd just say not to present things as undeniable fact when they aren't.
It is an undeniable fact that the cousin told the police that BD said he did it with SA. That is what led to the police talking to BD. That fact is an undeniable fact.
quote:
Given the pristine record of the investigation, I wouldn't say it's all that unlikely that they took this opportunity to get a little extra insurance on Avery.
Given the mountain of evidence they already had and the fact that the gun from which that bullet was fired was locked away, it would be difficult to get the gun out of evidence without evidence that they had done so, fired the gun, found the bullet, and then place some dna from TH on it. Where did they get the dna from TH?
Even if you think this all happened, which stretches the bounds of reality, and no one said anything, well, the fact is that a bullet was found in the garage, fired from his gun, and with her dna evidence on it. Again, this is fact.
quote:
You mean the same ones found at his house, and two others?
Like the ones found at his house, yes.
quote:
I haven't heard this before, or don't remember it. What was his explanation?
Read the confession. Or read one of my above posts.
Actually read BD confession. It is illuminating.
quote:
I already stated that this is impossible, or meaningless depending on what you want to do with it.
Impossible and meaningless are two totally different things. Impossible means it couldn't happen. It did.
Meaningless is more what you were looking for. But given the fact that they tie in with the confession and the mother said the first time she saw them was after the death of TH, well, it is evidence.
And as I said, it is a fact. What you choose to do with any single one of these facts is your choice.
However, when you look at the mountain of evidence that they have with the backing up of what happened by multiple pieces of evidence, you have a choice of what you think happened IMHO.
1. SA is guilty as charged. He did rape and kill TH.
or
2. This is the most masterful frame ever done on this planet involving so many people who never said anything about this that it is not believable, IMHO.
1
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:17 pm to brmark70816
quote:
How do you know she couldn't have been killed in either place?
I don't know and no one does except the killer/s, but I can make an inference on it, because I have an understanding of science.
quote:
Is it because of the lack of blood?
Partially, and also because of the extreme lack of evidence that she was ever in either place.
quote:
You do know that he burned everything associated with the crime and then had days to clean up. People are acting like there should be a blood soaked mattress or the walls splattered with fluids. He had lots of time to scrub stuff down and destroy everything.
You keep saying this, but then everyone acts like it's out of the question for one or two trained investigators to accomplish the opposite with much more time.
Again, where is the evidence of this. It is near a zero probability that she was killed in his bedroom, or the garage. At least not in the way that anyone has yet proposed. If you have something you feel is plausible, by all means lay it out.
quote:
To think that he wouldn't clean up as well, it just naïve..
Sure, he probably did. That doesn't mean a murder took place in his trailer or the garage.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:26 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Police involvement has to be limited to putting the blood in the car (nothing to back that up), planting DNA (doesn't seem likely that they have this skill), planting the key (how to they get his DNA only) and the bullet. Anything beyond that is a proclamation that the police force, at least two officers, targeted an innocent woman and killed her. There is no evidence to back that up at all
There will never be evidence against the sheriffs dept. They are not being investigated. However, when Peterson sketches SA to lead the victim to get a conviction, SA blood appears to be tampered with, Colburn ignores a call from a fellow cop that says he's got info on SA, on and on and on, it becomes wtf is wrong with these cops. This is not ok just because they are police. Lenk signs out but didn't sign in. Someone could probably make a list of 25 things the cops did that were suspect. Unfortunately, there won't be evidence against cops. It doesn't work that way.
And to boot if a cop was suspected of doing something improper or out right wrong, they would only be supported by fellow law enforcement. Nobody can take down a cop, even if he is a bad egg. Can't taint the system. Can't cause the public to question the intergrity of the police dept.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:28 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
but then everyone acts like it's out of the question for one or two trained investigators to accomplish the opposite with much more time
So, just to get it out there, you believe everything is planted or could have been planted, right? So no matter what, there is always some doubt, for you. Why not just come out and say that? You think it's all set up or could have been set up, so you just can never know for sure.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:28 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
It is an undeniable fact that the cousin told the police that BD said he did it with SA. That is what led to the police talking to BD. That fact is an undeniable fact.
Sure, but she also says she made it up, which I think is just as or more likely. That makes it a relatively meaningless fact.
quote:
Given the mountain of evidence they already had and the fact that the gun from which that bullet was fired was locked away, it would be difficult to get the gun out of evidence without evidence that they had done so, fired the gun, found the bullet, and then place some dna from TH on it. Where did they get the dna from TH?
Even if you think this all happened, which stretches the bounds of reality, and no one said anything, well, the fact is that a bullet was found in the garage, fired from his gun, and with her dna evidence on it. Again, this is fact.
I don't know what happened, I only know what doesn't make sense, and it's certainly a lot. Do some research on what happens to a .22 caliber bullet when it passes through something as thick and dense as the human skull. Twice.
I don't know how her DNA got on it, but I also don't know why it wasn't blood DNA. I also don't know what happened to the other nine bullets allegedly fired. None of this is conclusive one way or the other, but if it doesn't make you ask some questions, I don't know what will.
quote:
Like the ones found at his house, yes.
Right.
quote:
Read the confession. Or read one of my above posts.
Actually read BD confession. It is illuminating.
I have, and I do remember that part now. It just doesn't make sense. I firmly believe she was killed somewhere else, probably by Steven Avery.
quote:
Impossible and meaningless are two totally different things. Impossible means it couldn't happen. It did.
I'm aware of what each word means and implies. Impossible is exactly what I mean with your assertion on the bleach.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:30 pm to brmark70816
quote:
do you know she couldn't have been killed in either place? Is it because of the lack of blood? You do know that he burned everything associated with the crime and then had days to clean up. People are acting like there should be a blood soaked mattress or the walls splattered with fluids. He had lots of time to scrub stuff down and destroy everything. Burning the body displays a pattern of behavior of a certain amount of cunning/knowledge. To think that he wouldn't clean up as well, it just naïve..
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:32 pm to brmark70816
quote:
So, just to get it out there, you believe everything is planted or could have been planted, right? So no matter what, there is always some doubt, for you. Why not just come out and say that? You think it's all set up or could have been set up, so you just can never know for sure.
Not at all.
I believe she was killed on or near the property by a member of that family, and probably Steven Avery. I believe the investigators from MCSO suspected Avery, wanted to ensure he was gone for good, and did what they needed to do to make that happen. To what extent? Well, I don't know, and that's what we're discussing. I also think that their intense focus on him limited their investigations of other plausible suspects.
I don't need to defend Avery to think this is bullshite, because the two are not mutually exclusive.
***ETA***
The emotional response is that if I don't buy into what happened, I must be promoting a wide reaching conspiracy and taking up arms for Avery's release. That isn't the case, and you're better and smarter than that.
This post was edited on 1/24/16 at 3:37 pm
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:39 pm to StickD
Criminals do talk in prison and he had time to hone his craft. It's common knowledge about police DNA collection and how to avoid a lot of it. It doesn't take a genius to put down drop cloths or use certain chemicals to destroy traces or blood/DNA. It wasn't a crime of passion, so there was a level of preparation and he had time to do extensive clean-up. To just brush that off doesn't seem honest..
Also, I was reading in other forums and just found this out (although some people on here might already know it). Brendan's dad is married to Avery's ex-wife. So Brendan is cousins and step-brother to Avery's kids. Just one more thing that surprised me..
Also, I was reading in other forums and just found this out (although some people on here might already know it). Brendan's dad is married to Avery's ex-wife. So Brendan is cousins and step-brother to Avery's kids. Just one more thing that surprised me..
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:43 pm to brmark70816
Btw I'm on record saying they should just bomb the whole town 
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:43 pm to brmark70816
quote:
To just brush that off doesn't seem honest..
I don't think anyone is brushing that off. I think many feel (I do), and with validity, that there are major questions about any account presented to this point.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:51 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
It was quite simple to pull off really, all I had to do was have explosives planted in the base of the towers, then on 9/11 we pretended like 4 planes were being hijacked when really we just rerouted them to Pennsylvania then flew 2 military jets into the World Trade Centers filled with more explosives then shot all the witnesses of flight 93 with an F15 after blowing up the Pentagon with a cruise missile. It was only the world's most intricate and flawlessly executed plan, ever, ever.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:54 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
It was quite simple to pull off really, all I had to do was have explosives planted in the base of the towers, then on 9/11 we pretended like 4 planes were being hijacked when really we just rerouted them to Pennsylvania then flew 2 military jets into the World Trade Centers filled with more explosives then shot all the witnesses of flight 93 with an F15 after blowing up the Pentagon with a cruise missile. It was only the world's most intricate and flawlessly executed plan, ever, ever.
You really just compared a small-town murder case in bumfrick Wisconsin to 9/11? When all else fails, the emotional play is the idiot's last resort. Just when I thought you were progressing.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:57 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
I just needed to post that south park quote before this thread got too serious
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:59 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
I just needed to post that south park quote before this thread got too serious
Get out with that shite. This thread is serious AF.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 4:03 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
The emotional response is that if I don't buy into what happened, I must be promoting a wide reaching conspiracy and taking up arms for Avery's release. That isn't the case, and you're better and smarter than that.
Not at all. I'm fairly pragmatic about this whole thing and I'm just trying to understand what it would take to convince you. Also, is there anyway you would ever have any faith in any of the evidence. If you believe that it is all tainted, then it's kind of waste of time to keep pouring over it. The cops and forensic specialists all dropped the ball to a certain extent. Can you trust any of it?
Posted on 1/24/16 at 4:14 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Not at all. I'm fairly pragmatic about this whole thing and I'm just trying to understand what it would take to convince you.
Convince me of what?
quote:
Also, is there anyway you would ever have any faith in any of the evidence. If you believe that it is all tainted, then it's kind of waste of time to keep pouring over it. The cops and forensic specialists all dropped the ball to a certain extent. Can you trust any of it?
I think it's quite obvious that it isn't all tainted. My issue is that an overwhelming majority of evidence pointing directly to Steven Avery is so questionable.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 4:24 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Sure, but she also says she made it up, which I think is just as or more likely. That makes it a relatively meaningless fact.
Actually that is your assessment. I stated a fact.
I think it is much more likely that he told her and then the family made her recant her statement. Since BD confessed, and pointed out facts that weren't even known at the time, well I think this supports this assessment.
quote:
I don't know what happened, I only know what doesn't make sense, and it's certainly a lot. Do some research on what happens to a .22 caliber bullet when it passes through something as thick and dense as the human skull. Twice.
Actually we don't that bullet struck her in the skull. She was shot about ten times. According to BD only a few went in the head.
quote:
I don't know how her DNA got on it, but I also don't know why it wasn't blood DNA. I also don't know what happened to the other nine bullets allegedly fired. None of this is conclusive one way or the other, but if it doesn't make you ask some questions, I don't know what will.
That is the thing. If that is all they had, it wouldn't be enough. But they have so many other pieces. I asked the questions and then looked at everything else. And I accept that they killed her.
quote:
I have, and I do remember that part now. It just doesn't make sense. I firmly believe she was killed somewhere else, probably by Steven Avery.
Actually that is crazy. So you think avery drove her someplace, killed her, then drove the body back and burned it? Nope. That makes less sense than they stuffed her in the back and then changed their minds.
quote:
Impossible is exactly what I mean with your assertion on the bleach.
You are saying it is impossible that they found bleach stains on BDs clothes? Uh, they did. It isn't just possible, it happened.
Now if you mean this is meaningless, that is your opinion. But no, it is fact.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 4:28 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I think it's quite obvious that it isn't all tainted. My issue is that an overwhelming majority of evidence pointing directly to Steven Avery is so questionable.
The only reason it is questionable is because the defense team did a great job selling their stuff. And the "documentary" was watched by you first, coloring all future things you think about.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 4:42 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
Actually that is your assessment. I stated a fact.
That she made a statement to police? Obviously. Claiming there was truth to it is absolutely not a fact, and I'd say the opposite is more likely.
quote:
Actually we don't that bullet struck her in the skull. She was shot about ten times. According to BD only a few went in the head.
Of course not. We don't really know what happened because they couldn't establish that.
quote:
And I accept that they killed her.
Your opinion on his guilt is not the issue.
quote:
Actually that is crazy. So you think avery drove her someplace, killed her, then drove the body back and burned it? Nope. That makes less sense than they stuffed her in the back and then changed their minds.
It makes as much sense, or more than he is a Dexter level expert at cleaning up crime scenes.
quote:
You are saying it is impossible that they found bleach stains on BDs clothes?
Nope. I'm saying that your correlation between the bleach used to clean up and the bleach stains on his clothing is impossible.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 4:46 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
The only reason it is questionable is because the defense team did a great job selling their stuff.
It doesn't hurt that there is truth to it.
quote:
And the "documentary" was watched by you first, coloring all future things you think about.
Sweet assumption, but as I've stated in here more than a few times, this isn't the case. I read about this case before I ever watched a single episode on it. My wife mentioned it to me, and I initially thought it sounded just like all the other Lifetime made-for-television crap. I decided to read about it because I enjoy reading much more than watching television. After I did some fairly extensive research, I decided I'd watch the documentary with my wife. It was entertaining, but it did little to alter my thoughts one way or the other.
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