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Message
re: New Netflix docu-series "Making a Murderer" (Spoilers)
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:14 pm to thetempleowl
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:14 pm to thetempleowl
if Lenk did it this sounds text book and believable
Except there is no test that show EDTA, that's a stretch and has been discussed.
FTR I'm not saying Lenk absolutely did it, but he had motive and means. And as an added bonus, will never be questioned or investigated. So if he did, there is no fricking way he would ever get caught.
quote:
Blood was planted in TH car by police. Except it had no EDTA in it. The police planted the dna on the car. The police planted the bullet. The police planted the key. The police planted the bones. The police planted the car. The police tricked BD into...
Except there is no test that show EDTA, that's a stretch and has been discussed.
FTR I'm not saying Lenk absolutely did it, but he had motive and means. And as an added bonus, will never be questioned or investigated. So if he did, there is no fricking way he would ever get caught.
3
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:16 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
I forgot about the bleach, gas,etc used to clean up the site.
I also forgot about the bleach stains on BD clothes that his mother remembered.
This is impossible.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:19 pm to StickD
The key is the most convincing single piece of evidence to me. There is nearly zero doubt that someone other than Steven Avery put that key there. I freely admit that a complete framing of Steven Avery with all evidence being planted is unlikely. The key alone convinces me that it's entirely possible that a few key pieces to point to Steven Avery were.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:21 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
No. Some are indeed factual, some are suppositions, and some have little relevance.
Which one isn't factual? The conclusions you base upon them are up to you, but they are what we know at this time.
And they aren't suppositions. SA and BD were the last ones know to see TH alive. That is a fact. What you wish to deduce from that is up to you. I listed a bunch of facts.
BD confessed. What you feel about that confession is up to you.
BD knew things that only someone there would have known. That is fact. Even the police had no idea about them. They went back and checked and found out they were true.
What among what I said isn't true? If you are correct, I will amend the list.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:24 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
There is nearly zero doubt that someone other than Steven Avery put that key there.
I agree with this.
But, I think his contradictions over whether or not he saw her that day - alone - are pretty damning and outside the control of the authorities. I mean, she was definitely there - and there is no confirmation of her ever leaving or doing anything else. So, she was killed on the property - almost everyone else can be excluded by evidence outside themselves.
Yeah, Bobby and Tadych alibi each other - so that's a possibility (that should have been explored, IMHO), but the list of potential killers not named Steve Avery dries up pretty fast after that.
I'm not saying that's enough to convict - with all the questionable stuff the cops did (like planting the key) - BUT, that's enough for me to be as confident as I can be that a guilty man is doing the time, however dirty the cops were to get him there (and, no, I do not think the ends justify the means).
ETA: For example, I think the cops found the Rav4 - but knew they couldn't be the ones who officially "found" it. So, they tipped off the search teams.
Doesn't mean I think they killed Halbach, just that they were trying to pad the score. I don't think the blood evidence was planted. It is perfectly plausible that Avery bled - through the cut he was confirmed to have - while moving/concealing the Rav4.
One thing I think may have happened is that he killed her in another car on the premises - perhaps one he had prepared, then crushed that car later - just not thinking through that was the right answer on her car.
This post was edited on 1/24/16 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:26 pm to StickD
quote:
Except there is no test that show EDTA, that's a stretch and has been discussed.
Actually testing for edta can be done. It is extremely rare to do so. The last time it was done was for the OJ trial.
There is a test. They did it. It did not find any EDTA in the samples given.
These are facts. The sensitivities of said test can be discussed. But the facts are the facts. You can say it is an insensitive test. Hell, you can say they lied about the results. You can say the test is worthless. But the facts remain there was a test done. They had an fbi scientist come up and state no edta was in the sample. He further stated that the blood samples submitted did not come from a tube like the one that housed Avery's sample.
These are not suppositions. These are not in question. These are not wrong. These are simply facts.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:28 pm to StickD
quote:
if Lenk did it this sounds text book and believable
Try and put together a scenario where any of that works. For the cops to plant the car or the bones, they have to be the ones that killed her. If they just found her somewhere else, there is no way they know to tie her to Avery. There is no way to know that she was with Avery that day. Plus they had no way of knowing that he had a fire that night.
Police involvement has to be limited to putting the blood in the car (nothing to back that up), planting DNA (doesn't seem likely that they have this skill), planting the key (how to they get his DNA only) and the bullet. Anything beyond that is a proclamation that the police force, at least two officers, targeted an innocent woman and killed her. There is no evidence to back that up at all.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:29 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
The key is the most convincing single piece of evidence to me. There is nearly zero doubt that someone other than Steven Avery put that key there. I freely admit that a complete framing of Steven Avery with all evidence being planted is unlikely. The key alone convinces me that it's entirely possible that a few key pieces to point to Steven Avery were.
And honestly I really don't care about the key. There is such a mountain of evidence even without the key I really couldn't care less.
And the evidence is that is was found in avery's bedroom. It was. There is no doubt. Was it planted there? well hell you can decide that. But when you start going completely down that rabbit hole, to still not find SA guilty you have to ignore tons of other evidence.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:29 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
Which one isn't factual?
Several, but this one stands out to me the most.
25. BD admitted what he had done to his cousin, who told the police.
quote:
BD knew things that only someone there would have known. That is fact. Even the police had no idea about them. They went back and checked and found out they were true.
Be more specific on this.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:33 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
ETA: For example, I think the cops found the Rav4 - but knew they couldn't be the ones who officially "found" it. So, they tipped off the search teams.
I agree with this. They didn't have a search warrant yet and still went and illegally searched the property. The guy then called in the find to make sure it was the correct car.
That would explain why the call took place and why he was quiet about it. These types of shortcuts were likely not that uncommon ten or so years ago. They are probably still not a rare thing.
But that still doesn't mean that SA didn't do it.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:37 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I agree with this.
But, I think his contradictions over whether or not he saw her that day - alone - are pretty damning and outside the control of the authorities. I mean, she was definitely there - and there is no confirmation of her ever leaving or doing anything else. So, she was killed on the property - almost everyone else can be excluded by evidence outside themselves.
I agree, mostly. The contradictions are a strong indicator that he did kill her. Or, it's slightly possible that he's not very intelligent and also dishonest.
I don't necessarily believe that she was killed on the property, at least not anywhere near Steven Avery's trailer or the garage. Her body was in the back of her vehicle at some point after she was killed. Could she have been killed somewhere on the property? Sure, but there is a near zero probably that she was killed in or near his trailer and then moved only a few feet to the burn pit.
quote:
Yeah, Bobby and Tadych alibi each other - so that's a possibility (that should have been explored, IMHO), but the list of potential killers not named Steve Avery dries up pretty fast after that.
I think the list would have to include both of his brother, who themselves have sexually violent pasts.
quote:
I'm not saying that's enough to convict - with all the questionable stuff the cops did (like planting the key) - BUT, that's enough for me to be as confident as I can be that a guilty man is doing the time, however dirty the cops were to get him there (and, no, I do not think the ends justify the means).
I would support this in the same way I'd be OK with sending him to the town square for a good stoning. Sure, it's probably what he deserves, but that's not how I want our system to work.
quote:
ETA: For example, I think the cops found the Rav4 - but knew they couldn't be the ones who officially "found" it. So, they tipped off the search teams.
Doesn't mean I think they killed Halbach, just that they were trying to pad the score. I don't think the blood evidence was planted. It is perfectly plausible that Avery bled - through the cut he was confirmed to have - while moving/concealing the Rav4.
Wasn't this cut on his left finger? The locations of his blood just seem highly unlikely to me given the circumstances.
quote:
One thing I think may have happened is that he killed her in another car on the premises - perhaps one he had prepared, then crushed that car later - just not thinking through that was the right answer on her car.
I don't think he's intelligent enough to come up with one, and not the other.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:38 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
And honestly I really don't care about the key.
Well, that's fine, but you really should regardless of what you believe happened.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:40 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Several, but this one stands out to me the most.
25. BD admitted what he had done to his cousin, who told the police.
Actually, We know the cousin told police that he confessed to her. I suppose I could slightly amend the statement if it makes that big of a difference.
quote:
Be more specific on this.
Following his saying that Sa went under the hood and did something, they went back and checked the hoodlatch for SA dna and found it.
He said that SA shot her multiple times in the garage. They went back and did a much more thorough search taking everything out and this time found a bullet with her dna on it that had been fired from his gun.
He described leg irons like the ones that SA had bought.
He explains how the TH blood got in the back of the car.
and there were bleach stains on his clothes that were found that also backs up his statements that they found after searching.
There were likely others, but these are just off the top of my head.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:44 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I don't think he's intelligent enough to come up with one, and not the other.
And I didn't mean to suggest this - it is clear he is cunning, but perhaps not intelligent in a conventional way. I don't mean he thought of one and not the other, but that the timing was off.
Assuming my theory is correct that he had one of the abandoned, junk cars/vans, what have you prepared for just such a situation and then killed her there. I'm not sure what you base her being returned to the Rav4 - maybe I missed that part. I figured that once she was secure, he moved the Rav4 to get it out of sight.
The documentary wasn't clear - when was the last time anyone admitted to seeing the Rav4 before it was found, partially concealed in the yard?
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:45 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I don't necessarily believe that she was killed on the property, at least not anywhere near Steven Avery's trailer or the garage. Her body was in the back of her vehicle at some point after she was killed. Could she have been killed somewhere on the property? Sure, but there is a near zero probably that she was killed in or near his trailer and then moved only a few feet to the burn pit.
Actually, if you read the confession, you will find that she was first stuffed in the back of the suv and Sa was supposedly going to dump the body in a body of water. They changed their mind and took her out of the back of the svu and shot her about ten times in the garage and then took her to the burn pit.
And that jives with the evidence found by the blood patterns in the back of the suv as well as with the bullet with her dna on it found in the garage. Along obviously with the body in the burn pit.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:49 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
Actually, We know the cousin told police that he confessed to her. I suppose I could slightly amend the statement if it makes that big of a difference.
I don't care if you amend it or not, I'd just say not to present things as undeniable fact when they aren't.
quote:
Following his saying that Sa went under the hood and did something, they went back and checked the hoodlatch for SA dna and found it.
He said that SA shot her multiple times in the garage. They went back and did a much more thorough search taking everything out and this time found a bullet with her dna on it that had been fired from his gun.
Given the pristine record of the investigation, I wouldn't say it's all that unlikely that they took this opportunity to get a little extra insurance on Avery.
quote:
He described leg irons like the ones that SA had bought.
You mean the same ones found at his house, and two others?
quote:
He explains how the TH blood got in the back of the car.
I haven't heard this before, or don't remember it. What was his explanation?
quote:
and there were bleach stains on his clothes that were found that also backs up his statements that they found after searching.
I already stated that this is impossible, or meaningless depending on what you want to do with it.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:53 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
I'm not sure what you base her being returned to the Rav4 - maybe I missed that part.
They found her blood in the back of the RAV4, and believe she was in there sometime after she had been killed.
quote:
The documentary wasn't clear - when was the last time anyone admitted to seeing the Rav4 before it was found, partially concealed in the yard?
If I remember correctly, it was the bus driver.
quote:
And I didn't mean to suggest this - it is clear he is cunning, but perhaps not intelligent in a conventional way. I don't mean he thought of one and not the other, but that the timing was off.
I get it. There are so many possible things that could have happened. The one huge thing I'm certain of is that it didn't happen anywhere close to how the prosecution presented it, and it troubles me that someone was still convicted based on that.
Posted on 1/24/16 at 2:55 pm to thetempleowl
quote:
Actually, if you read the confession, you will find that she was first stuffed in the back of the suv and Sa was supposedly going to dump the body in a body of water. They changed their mind and took her out of the back of the svu and shot her about ten times in the garage and then took her to the burn pit.
And that jives with the evidence found by the blood patterns in the back of the suv as well as with the bullet with her dna on it found in the garage. Along obviously with the body in the burn pit.
To believe this, you also have to believe she had been killed in his trailer or garage, correct?
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:06 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
How do you know she couldn't have been killed in either place? Is it because of the lack of blood? You do know that he burned everything associated with the crime and then had days to clean up. People are acting like there should be a blood soaked mattress or the walls splattered with fluids. He had lots of time to scrub stuff down and destroy everything. Burning the body displays a pattern of behavior of a certain amount of cunning/knowledge. To think that he wouldn't clean up as well, it just naïve..
Posted on 1/24/16 at 3:07 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Try and put together a scenario where any of that works. For the cops to plant the car or the bones, they have to be the ones that killed her. If they just found her somewhere else, there is no way they know to tie her to Avery. There is no way to know that she was with Avery that day. Plus they had no way of knowing that he had a fire that night.
They had eight days of unimpeded access to the entire property.
quote:
putting the blood in the car (nothing to back that up)
Not with certainty, but it's questionable nonetheless.
quote:
planting DNA (doesn't seem likely that they have this skill)
What makes you say that?
quote:
planting the key (how to they get his DNA only)
There are numerous ways this could have happened.
quote:
There is no evidence to back that up at all.
I agree, and I don't even remotely believe that is what happened.
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