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re: New Netflix docu-series "Making a Murderer" (Spoilers)

Posted on 1/5/16 at 9:26 pm to
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 9:26 pm to
LINK

This link is REALLY GOOD.


quote:

I have recently watched the documentary series, “Making a Murderer.” I know that everyone has thoughts and opinions after watching this, and I am no different. However, I would just like to share some facts about a few pieces of evidence, and the fault in how they were used. My current profession revolves around making sure scientific tests measure exactly what they are supposed to measure and do so in a consistent, reliable way. It is in this spirit, that I feel like I am allowed to weigh in on the “DNA bullet” and the EDTA detection.

When these tests are developed, there are controls put into place that ensure the test was run correctly. These controls are usually of a positive and negative variety: the positive control will have a known substance or quantity that will produce a result that falls within a specific range and the negative control will produce no result (a zero, nothing detected, etc.). In order to be able to produce results that can be labeled “scientifically valid,” the test must contain controls. If something comes up in the negative control, it is an invalid test. If the positive control produces a result that is abnormal or out of range, it is an invalid test. An invalid test means, in effect, that there are NO ACTUAL TEST RESULTS. In regards to whatever sample you were testing, in that specific test, there are no results. This prevents reporting of tainted, skewed, and erroneous results.

While DNA testing the bullet, the technician performing the test found that some of her own DNA got into the negative control. Because the negative control was no longer negative, it was an invalid test. Because she used the entire sample, she decided to submit a deviation, so the results from the sample could be used despite an invalid test. This is extremely poor science at best, and at worst…well, planting evidence and bias doesn't need to be mentioned any more than it already has. Even mentioning that the bullet had the victim’s DNA on it is a lie. It was based on an invalid test. Scientists NEVER draw conclusions from an invalid test. The fact that she did not save any sample to be tested again is not the defendant’s fault. It is an error. This situation should have been deemed “inconclusive” or “no test” and, thus, there is no test result that became evidence.

Detecting EDTA from a blood swab sample sounds fairly straightforward. However, without having a documented limit of detection, no scientist can accept what the test can and can’t do. If one does not know what a test can and cannot do, he or she cannot use that test to draw any conclusions. Let’s discuss the “limit of detection.” Imagine one particle of flu virus lands on your arm. There is no person in their right mind that would knowingly be able to feel it land on his or her arm. On the other hand, everyone would be able to feel a brick land on their arm. There is a “limit of detection” that the human sense of touch inherently has.

In regards to the documentary, the test showed that no EDTA was detectable in the blood swabs. Without a limit of detection, this information means nothing, absolutely nothing. It is possible that the test could only detect EDTA if EDTA composed at least 50% of the sample. The amount of EDTA in blood tubes is miniscule, almost negligible compared to the amount of blood. We are talking about 7 milligrams of EDTA in a 4-mL blood tube. If 0.1 mL was taken out, it would, at most, contain 0.2 mg of EDTA. The blood was swabbed from the vehicle, and probably only 1/10 of the blood (0.01 mL of actual blood), thereby diluting it further. The swab used was also wetted with some sort of solvent, maybe 0.1 mL. Now, there’s only 0.002 mg of EDTA in the blood swab. The swab most likely was diluted further for test purposes, probably taking the swab and re-suspending into at least 1 mL of solution. Using my numbers, which are probably conservative, the test would have to be able to detect 0.0002 mg (0.2 µg) of EDTA in 1 mL of sample. Outside of the amount of EDTA present in a 4-mL blood tube, these numbers are hypothetical for illustrative purposes only.

The testing that would have been required to scientifically validate this test would have required some time. After following standard validation procedures, I would have taken blood from an EDTA vial (any blood) and put it onto a vehicle surface. After the blood was completely dry, I would have used the same blood swabbing and collection procedure used during the investigation, and then tested that sample. This would be a positive control, since the technician would know that there was EDTA in that sample. Does the newly-developed test detect the EDTA? If so, repeat it at least 10 times, and you have a strong scientific ground to make the statement that there was no EDTA present in the blood from the vehicle. If the test does not detect EDTA from the experiment above, one cannot make any mention about the presence or absence of EDTA in the blood swabs from the vehicle because the test could not detect EDTA amounts that small.

I do not know all of the work that went into developing the EDTA detection test. However, using the results and drawing a conclusion based on those results, without having a well-defined test with a limit of detection, is a LIE. I will not mention using the results from only 3 swabs to extrapolate results onto the untested swabs. That was just plain unethical, and I am glad a rebuttal witness for the defense made that clear.

I have plenty of opinions about what I saw in the documentary, which I may share later. I just wanted to lay out some facts from the scientific field about what I saw. Based on what I have presented here, pretend the bullet had no trace of the victim, and pretend the blood swabs were never tested for the presence of EDTA. That is what should have been done.
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 9:27 pm to
quote:

. Not a single meeting with the prosecutors by the film makers.


Hmmm....did you ever wonder WHY? Huh? Did you ever wonder if they had been asked to be apart of the doc? Did you?
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 9:33 pm to
quote:

Yeah, family of the victim gets a pass for whatever they say. The brother does sort of creep me out, but he also lost his sister, and it's not up to use to tell him how to properly mourn that.


I think the suspicion of the brother comes from

A) His "certain/100%/without a doubt" attitude towards any of the testimonies on behalf of the defense. Any defense witness he immediately called a "liar", as if he knew what the truth was, when in fact, he had no idea. He didn't need to even say anything at all, frankly.

B) The voicemail deleting ....or the access, just something weird about the timing of all of that.

Those two things stand out the most, and the rest is just looking to add to the view of his weirdness about the whole thing.
Posted by 13SaintTiger
Isle of Capri
Member since Sep 2011
18419 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 9:47 pm to
quote:

B) The voicemail deleting ....or the access, just something weird about the timing of all of that.



I forgot about this, it is telling. But disregarding that, I don't know how you can fault the brother, imagine if it was your sibling who was killed and you 100% believed the accuser was the one who did it.
Posted by brmark70816
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
11473 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 9:59 pm to
quote:

I think the suspicion of the brother comes from


Are you suspicious of Avery at all? You just implicated the brother of the victim cause he didn't like people defending the guy that murdered his sister and he hacked his sister's voicemail when she had been missing for a few days, trying to get clues about where she might be.
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:07 pm to
quote:

I B Freeman


How long have you worked for the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department?
Posted by DisplacedBuckeye
Member since Dec 2013
76732 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:10 pm to
quote:

hacked his sister's voicemail


Ths strangest part was how some of them had been deleted. I'm not saying he's the one who did that, but someone did and we don't know why.
Posted by brmark70816
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
11473 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:18 pm to
Ok, let's play it out. Her brother or her roommate or ex kills her. Where did they do it? How do they get any evidence back to Avery's place? How did they even know she had gone there? Were they following here all day?
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:21 pm to
quote:

Are you suspicious of Avery at all? You just implicated the brother of the victim cause he didn't like people defending the guy that murdered his sister and he hacked his sister's voicemail when she had been missing for a few days, trying to get clues about where she might be.



I think the suspicion of Avery was covered quite a bit....considering he was given a guilty verdict...so it seems a bit unnecessary.
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:23 pm to
quote:

I forgot about this, it is telling. But disregarding that, I don't know how you can fault the brother, imagine if it was your sibling who was killed and you 100% believed the accuser was the one who did it.



Im not saying its him, Im just saying its ridiculous to zone in on Avery when there was TONS of suspicious activity, including her OWN BROTHER. The ex, the other avery family members on the property, or like the rape case, other known violent assailants at the time of the murder.
Posted by 13SaintTiger
Isle of Capri
Member since Sep 2011
18419 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:23 pm to
quote:


Ok, let's play it out. Her brother or her roommate or ex kills her. Where did they do it? How do they get any evidence back to Avery's place? How did they even know she had gone there? Were they following here all day?




No one else was investigated so there is clearly no way to know the answers to what you are asking. Any answer to your questions is just speculation, just like with every theory involving Steven Avery and how Theresa was killed is speculation.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:25 pm to
quote:

"hi there, we're making a documentary filmed over several years that asserts that steven avery was framed by mr kratz, mr lenk, mr colburn, and potentially a large number of manitowoc county law enforcement officials...would you mind penciling me in for a meeting so we can film your side?"


You just summed up exactly their goals---make a documentary that asserts Avery was framed.

It is like they ignored the most basic facts.
Posted by brmark70816
Atlanta, GA
Member since Feb 2011
11473 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:30 pm to
quote:

No one else was investigated so there is clearly no way to know the answers to what you are asking. Any answer to your questions is just speculation, just like with every theory involving Steven Avery and how Theresa was killed is speculation.


To a point, but it takes extreme mental gymnastics to tie any of those guys to the killing. There is no way they would know where to bring the evidence or where to put it. Plus nobody seeing any of them or them leaving no other traces. How would they plant blood? There is just no way, them acting alone or as a group could have done even a portion of it. Unless you think they acted along with the police..?
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:31 pm to
quote:

You just summed up exactly their goals---make a documentary that asserts Avery was framed.

It is like they ignored the most basic facts.


Are you fricking that dense? They never said that.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:31 pm to
quote:

Your points are refuted by a different poster in each thread, but you still bask in your ignorance.



Can you point to any refutes that say the car was not found on Avery property? that Avery was not obsessed with the girl? that refutes her bones were discovered in the Avery's bon fire site? that her keys were in his trailer? that a bullet was found in his shed with her DNA? that his blood was found in her car? that he was not creepy? that he did not burn a cat? that his own nephew said he did it?

To believe he was framed you have to believe the cops murdered the girl. How would they have gotten her bones otherwise to place them on Avery property? GIVE ME A BREAK.

The guy was a white trash troublemaker whose reputation no doubt played a part in his wrongful conviction in the rape case.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:35 pm to
quote:

quote:
You just summed up exactly their goals---make a documentary that asserts Avery was framed.

It is like they ignored the most basic facts.


Are you fricking that dense? They never said that.



Learn to read. The other poster said that but it was exactly what the film makers were trying to do.

They didn't even call a prosecutor and ask "what do you say to those that say you framed Avery?"

A "documentary" would have attempted to show the other side.

Posted by CtotheVrzrbck
WeWaCo
Member since Dec 2007
37538 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:35 pm to
That is the exact question I had regarding the EDTA test. I find it hard to believe that a crack defense team would not have found a lab tech or expert DNA scientist destroy the EDTA testing methodology.

It seems they could have dismantled the evidence by doing that.
Posted by tiggerthetooth
Big Momma's House
Member since Oct 2010
64521 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:36 pm to
quote:

that Avery was not obsessed with the girl?


Never confirmed. Please post links.


quote:

that a bullet was found in his shed with her DNA?


Please read above the link I posted. I guess it shouldnt be a surprise your reading comprehension equals that of your listening comprehension.

quote:

To believe he was framed you have to believe the cops murdered the girl.


Please provide the logic to this, because it simply isn't true. She could have been murdered by a third party and the cops used to opportunity to not just make their humiliation go away, but to keep themselves from having to pay a $36 million stipend. Just like they did the first time. They used the circumstance for their own agenda.


quote:

The guy was a white trash troublemaker whose reputation no doubt played a part in his wrongful conviction in the rape case.


Whats your point?

quote:

that his own nephew said he did it?


Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:38 pm to
quote:

TONS of suspicious activity, including her OWN BROTHER.


Give me a break.

There were TONS and TONS of evidence Avery or some member of his family murdered the girl.

The defense, as they were paid to do, made much to do about nothing in order to create confusion in the eyes of jurors.
Posted by 13SaintTiger
Isle of Capri
Member since Sep 2011
18419 posts
Posted on 1/5/16 at 10:38 pm to
Go back and read the responses to when you first posted that. You've posted the same shite for the past two days.
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