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re: "Midway" is expected to be a surprise #1 at the box office this weekend...
Posted on 11/13/19 at 2:09 pm to stateofplay
Posted on 11/13/19 at 2:09 pm to stateofplay
quote:
So you have never heard of shooting models to scale with minimal cgi added or using ships that appear similar to the error portrayed, like Nolan did in Dunkirk?
And if there is one criticism I will lay at the feet of Dunkirk, it's the fact that the film lacks scope due to how sparingly few planes/ships there were in the finished product.
1
Posted on 11/14/19 at 8:09 am to RollTide1987
quote:
And if there is one criticism I will lay at the feet of Dunkirk, it's the fact that the film lacks scope due to how sparingly few planes/ships there were in the finished product.
Honeslty, I agree with this. But I would mix both. Have real ships and planes in the foreground, closeups and computer generated in the distance to fill out the scenes.
Posted on 11/14/19 at 9:03 am to RollTide1987
quote:
Roland Emmerich.
Woof
I'll wait until it's $4 on Amazon Prime.
Posted on 11/14/19 at 9:16 am to TheCaterpillar
quote:
I'll wait until it's $4 on Amazon Prime
Wow a $10 or $12 ticket is too much, you need a loan bro.
Posted on 11/14/19 at 9:54 am to marcus3000
quote:
I'm Gen X btw, so skip that "OK Boomer" thought.
Just -
then?
Full disclosure - I'm also Gen-X and I agree with you.
Posted on 11/15/19 at 3:37 pm to RollTide1987
They hadn't seen it because the two carrier groups had just met in the Pacific, at night, during storm. Part of historical record.
Posted on 11/15/19 at 3:57 pm to stateofplay
quote:
So you have never heard of shooting models to scale with minimal cgi added or using ships that appear similar to the error portrayed, like Nolan did in Dunkirk?
quote:quote:I'm fine with miniatures, provided you can get the correct appearance.
And if there is one criticism I will lay at the feet of Dunkirk, it's the fact that the film lacks scope due to how sparingly few planes/ships there were in the finished product.
Just as I'm fine with CGI for the same thing.
My comment was more along the lines of- they're not going to find a carrier or two, or enough planes to fill out a squadron.
For ships on the ocean, I think CGI is probably the better route over miniatures, because of the water physics. You don't want the boats looking like toys in a bathtub.
As for Dunkirk, I was underwhelmed by that, visually. Very minimalist.
Honeslty, I agree with this. But I would mix both. Have real ships and planes in the foreground, closeups and computer generated in the distance to fill out the scenes.
Posted on 11/16/19 at 8:31 pm to Scoob
Saw it last night and thoroughly enjoyed.
Posted on 11/17/19 at 5:51 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Yeah...I had to roll my eyes at certain parts. The entire Jimmy Doolittle raid scene was terrible writing. *Man enters wardroom* Man: You gotta see this. *Both men go up on deck and see the B-25 bombers on the neighboring carrier* Man #2: WTF is this shite?! You're telling me this is the first time you notice the giant B-25 Mitchells strapped to the neighboring Hornet even though they're literally about to launch?
couldn't let this slide...that is exactly what happened. the enterprise and hornet rendezvoused before the launch. I remember reading specifically from my book on the enterprise the crew waking up one morning and laying eyes on the hornet's deck seeing bombers. keep in mind most of the ships men did not know what mission they were on (at any time), let alone know what even part of the pacific they were in.
just saw the movie today...I enjoyed it. historically accurate, working in the major details of midway and the lead up. if one does not know ww2 history that well they might have a tough time following.
like others, did not like dick best's character, not well acted, neither was wade mcclusky's character.
I thought it fell short in explaining the error in re-arming the Japanese bombers and why McClusky's discovery of the IJN Arashi was so critical to the battle.
I could pick it apart but wont. very difficult story to put together in 2 hours but they did.
and I don't really understand the complaints about CGI. w/o sounding sarcastic, how the hell else were they supposed to do it? the dive runs into the onslaught of flak were incredible and realistic....as well as how long the pilots held their dive risking life, crew and plane to make sure their bombs hit home which is word for word out of the mouths of the real life pilots.
go see it, its not a masterpiece but far from disappointing.
This post was edited on 11/17/19 at 6:27 pm
Posted on 11/17/19 at 7:34 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Full disclosure - I'm also Gen-X and I agree with you.
Im in the middle. Im either a very young boomer or a old as frick GenX. Cant make my mind up
Posted on 11/22/19 at 11:59 pm to RollTide1987
I just saw it tonight. I would agree with many of the other comments here. The dialogue is, at times, just awful. The basic history is pretty accurate, but there were problems. For example, the Enterprise's planes flew to Pearl on Dec, 7 not during the attack, but in the evening, and several planes were shot down by nervous American AA gunners, not Japanese fighters.) The movie is pretty choppy and if one is not familiar with the details of the battle, it would be very confusing at times. The tragic story of Torpedo 8 could have been emphasized more. (For those who are not familiar, every single plane of Hornet's torpedo squadron was lost and only one pilot survived. In the movie you see him in the water cheering on the later attacks. BTW, when Churchill read the account of Torpedo 8's attack and their losses, he supposedly wept.)
The real problem with the film, for me, was the depiction of the actual combat scenes. First, the tactics were all wrong: dive bombers did not attack in a wave, like a full frontal infantry assault. The attacked single file and they were not nearly as close to each other as depicted in the film. The ships under attack (both Japanese and American) were much more spread out, with as much as a couple of miles between ships. The anti-aircraft fire was not nearly so dense and, in general, the battle space was much "cleaner," for want of a better term. This is not to say it was any less harrowing, but the sky was not nearly as thick with with planes and AA fire. American dive bombers were not getting shot down in droves during the attack (the losses were quite heavy, but a lot of them occurred when pilots had to ditch their aircraft on the way back after running out of fuel and were never found), and planes were not crashing into ships when they were shot down. (I'm not talking about deliberate attacks, of which there were only a couple, including an American pilot who crashed his disabled plane into the turret of a Japanese cruiser that was eventually sunk.) If Best had clipped the tip of his wing in the water after the attack on the Hiryu, as depicted in the film, the wing would have ripped off and he would have cartwheeled into the drink. Etc.....
The bottom line is that in the interest of appealing to an audience used to video game graphics and (as one person pointed out) Star Wars battle sequences, the film missed the chance to use CGI to give us a realistic picture of what air war in the Pacific actually looked and felt like. Tis a shame, because CGI was, at other times, used very effectively to give us a realistic portrayal of the warships and planes involved.
PS: One person mistakenly wrote that Midway was the first battle in which the opposing warships never saw each other. It was actually the battle of the Coral Sea that has that distinction.
The real problem with the film, for me, was the depiction of the actual combat scenes. First, the tactics were all wrong: dive bombers did not attack in a wave, like a full frontal infantry assault. The attacked single file and they were not nearly as close to each other as depicted in the film. The ships under attack (both Japanese and American) were much more spread out, with as much as a couple of miles between ships. The anti-aircraft fire was not nearly so dense and, in general, the battle space was much "cleaner," for want of a better term. This is not to say it was any less harrowing, but the sky was not nearly as thick with with planes and AA fire. American dive bombers were not getting shot down in droves during the attack (the losses were quite heavy, but a lot of them occurred when pilots had to ditch their aircraft on the way back after running out of fuel and were never found), and planes were not crashing into ships when they were shot down. (I'm not talking about deliberate attacks, of which there were only a couple, including an American pilot who crashed his disabled plane into the turret of a Japanese cruiser that was eventually sunk.) If Best had clipped the tip of his wing in the water after the attack on the Hiryu, as depicted in the film, the wing would have ripped off and he would have cartwheeled into the drink. Etc.....
The bottom line is that in the interest of appealing to an audience used to video game graphics and (as one person pointed out) Star Wars battle sequences, the film missed the chance to use CGI to give us a realistic picture of what air war in the Pacific actually looked and felt like. Tis a shame, because CGI was, at other times, used very effectively to give us a realistic portrayal of the warships and planes involved.
PS: One person mistakenly wrote that Midway was the first battle in which the opposing warships never saw each other. It was actually the battle of the Coral Sea that has that distinction.
This post was edited on 11/23/19 at 12:03 am
Posted on 11/23/19 at 4:02 am to TigerCard
The Dive Bombers did attack in waves, standard formation of the 5 plane group is 3-2.
The 3 in a v formation, with the group commander (like Best in the Middle). The 2 in lead wingman formation.
When Best dived on the Akagi, his left wingman just missed the bow of the Akagi and his right got a glazing hit that just bounced into the water near the rudder of the Akagi, while Best hit the dead center of the Akagi with the 1000 pound bomber.
These attacks are all under 5 minutes by all the dive bombers from the Enterprise and Yorktown. That is 27 dive bombers lead by Wade McClusky attacking the Kaga, in that attack is Clarence Dickerson and Jack Kleiss. The attack on the Soryu is lead by Max Leslie and has 17 planes of the Yorktown.
The Kaga is known to been hit 4 time and likely had a 5th hit aft pre the newest research on the Japanese accounts, that is 5 to 27 ratio on the slowest of the Japanese fleet carriers. Kleiss is one of the Hits his wingman missed.
Wade McClusky is a fighter pilot and was used as a dive bomber pilot on the mission leading the attack, this is why the mix up on the attack happens, as Wade McClusky group should have attacked the far carrier (the Akagi) and Best's group the Kaga. Best see the mistake and pulls out of the dive on the Kaga with his two wingmen and attacks the Akagi.
All 30 planes were diving on the Kaga at once in step formation of 2 groupings. Bomber six is commanded By Best and has 15 planes, Lt. W.E. GALLAHER is leading Scouting Six of 15 planes, Wade is overall command leading in scouting six.
The 3 in a v formation, with the group commander (like Best in the Middle). The 2 in lead wingman formation.
When Best dived on the Akagi, his left wingman just missed the bow of the Akagi and his right got a glazing hit that just bounced into the water near the rudder of the Akagi, while Best hit the dead center of the Akagi with the 1000 pound bomber.
These attacks are all under 5 minutes by all the dive bombers from the Enterprise and Yorktown. That is 27 dive bombers lead by Wade McClusky attacking the Kaga, in that attack is Clarence Dickerson and Jack Kleiss. The attack on the Soryu is lead by Max Leslie and has 17 planes of the Yorktown.
The Kaga is known to been hit 4 time and likely had a 5th hit aft pre the newest research on the Japanese accounts, that is 5 to 27 ratio on the slowest of the Japanese fleet carriers. Kleiss is one of the Hits his wingman missed.
Wade McClusky is a fighter pilot and was used as a dive bomber pilot on the mission leading the attack, this is why the mix up on the attack happens, as Wade McClusky group should have attacked the far carrier (the Akagi) and Best's group the Kaga. Best see the mistake and pulls out of the dive on the Kaga with his two wingmen and attacks the Akagi.
All 30 planes were diving on the Kaga at once in step formation of 2 groupings. Bomber six is commanded By Best and has 15 planes, Lt. W.E. GALLAHER is leading Scouting Six of 15 planes, Wade is overall command leading in scouting six.
This post was edited on 11/23/19 at 4:07 am
Posted on 11/23/19 at 4:26 am to tigger1
The reason for the formation attacks:
There are two types of attack in the dive bomber a gliding attack (which the Marine pilots used) and the steppe angle attack the Navy pilots used.
The carriers are fast and can steer very fast, as the attacker you are trying to cover a block of ocean to hit the target in. In the dive there is little room for maneuver and your coming in at very steppe angle. The reason for so many misses is the block covered and the steering of the carrier.
The Hiryu and Soryu are the 2 fastest of the Japanese carriers and can steer very small circles, this can been seen in the B-17 attacks photographs.
Torpedo attacks also used formation in 2 groups called the hammer and anvil attack.
Japanese defects, no radar, target fixation (most were watching the clean up of the last torpedo attack when the dive bombers showed up and like in the Indian Ocean attack on the carriers had not clue), Japanese AA guns could not cover the dive at the step angle over the deck.
Why so many hits on the front of the carriers? The Japanese painted a huge Red Sun near the front of the carriers flight deck and near all the pilots aimed for that point.
There are two types of attack in the dive bomber a gliding attack (which the Marine pilots used) and the steppe angle attack the Navy pilots used.
The carriers are fast and can steer very fast, as the attacker you are trying to cover a block of ocean to hit the target in. In the dive there is little room for maneuver and your coming in at very steppe angle. The reason for so many misses is the block covered and the steering of the carrier.
The Hiryu and Soryu are the 2 fastest of the Japanese carriers and can steer very small circles, this can been seen in the B-17 attacks photographs.
Torpedo attacks also used formation in 2 groups called the hammer and anvil attack.
Japanese defects, no radar, target fixation (most were watching the clean up of the last torpedo attack when the dive bombers showed up and like in the Indian Ocean attack on the carriers had not clue), Japanese AA guns could not cover the dive at the step angle over the deck.
Why so many hits on the front of the carriers? The Japanese painted a huge Red Sun near the front of the carriers flight deck and near all the pilots aimed for that point.
This post was edited on 11/23/19 at 4:42 am
Posted on 11/23/19 at 11:30 pm to tigger1
Thanks for the comments, and I'd agree with much of what you wrote. For what it's worth, my most recent source for dive bomber tactics is a book entitled How Carriers Fought by Lars Celander. It's an exhaustive look at the equipment, tactics, and procedures followed by carriers and their air groups of the US, Japan, and Great Britain during WWII. Here's the relevant passage on dive bomber tactics, which I think you'll find interesting.
"Attacking was typically in single file. the commander in the lead plane selected the target and the others followed him down in a line astern. Those awaiting their turn flew a pattern that fed planes into the file at the required intervals. Some distance was maintained between the planes, a minimum of 3-4 seconds, typically 5 seconds or more, so as not to be hit by the blast of the bomb of the plane in front of you. . . . Another approach was to attack in small formation, for example three bombers at a time with the middle bomber leading the way and the other two following him down as his wingmen. Keeping formation complicated the dive but allowed for more attacks to be done in a short time. . . .
A dive from a cruising altitude of 12,000 feet to release altitude of 2,000 feet takes roughly 30 seconds. the time of fall of a bomb released at 2,000 feet is about 3 seconds. A ship at 30 knots travels about 50 meters in 3 seconds, which is not much compared to the 200-300m length of a major warship. A well-trained pilot can hit repeatedly within about 10-20m which should be compared to the 25-40m width of a major warship. This means that an attack can be made on any quarter and that a major warship is only able to do very limited evasive maneuvering while the bomb falls. On the other hand, once a dive has started, the pilot has committed himself to an aiming point and thus to where he thinks the target is going to be when it is time to release the bomb. If the target has maneuvered somewhere else, the pilot will have to adjust his dive and his accuracy will suffer."
As to what was actually done at Midway, there's this passage in Never Call Me a Hero, the recently published memoir of Jack "Dusty" Kleiss, who along with Dick Best, was the only one to score hits on two carriers on the same day. Here's a portion of his account of the attack on the Hiryu.
"I had just pushed over and I could see the string of three planes in line ahead of me. Had Hiryu remained on a steady course, Gallaher would have hit it, but the ship's sudden turn prevented that. The next pilot, Reid Stone, also missed. He was following Gallaher closely in his dive and likewise did not have time to correct. Thankfully, the third pilot, Richard Jaccard--a junior pilot who missed Kaga during the morning attack--delivered the first hit. The rookie's 500-pound bomb plunged through Hiryu's forward elevator, flinging the big steel slab up against the bridge.
As I plunged toward the sea, fourth in line, I remember thinking this was my toughest dive yet. In the morning, I had to hit a moving target. Now I had to hit not only a moving target, but one that was also in the middle of a sharp turn. In a few seconds, I sized up the enemy carrier and determined its speed and turning radius. Hiryu, smaller than Kaga and Akagi, turned remarkably fast. It's bow would be off its own port quarter in twenty seconds, meaning it could complete a 120-degree turn in that short a period of time. Yikes! Once again I aimed for the unblemished rising Sun on the flight deck. I didn't aim directly to hit the ship, but aimed for where the ship was going to be as it continued that turn.
I took my plane down to a low altitude--about 1,500 feet--and released my payload. My bombs plunged into Hiryu's flight deck."
Now, this is not to say that all the attacks at Midway were carried out this way (the morning attack was so confused that normal tactics might have been abandoned), but I wanted to enter these passages into the discussion.
Some of my Midway books are boxed up and I haven't been able to locate any information on Best's dive and possible contact with the sea. Do you remember where you got that information? (Gordon Prange's Miracle at Midway, perhaps?) However, I have a hard time believing that his wingtip actually dipped below the water, as depicted in the film. It just seems that the physics involved in such an event would have caused a crash. But I freely admit I could be wrong.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought you might be interested. It's great to meet someone who is as passionate about the battle as I am.
"Attacking was typically in single file. the commander in the lead plane selected the target and the others followed him down in a line astern. Those awaiting their turn flew a pattern that fed planes into the file at the required intervals. Some distance was maintained between the planes, a minimum of 3-4 seconds, typically 5 seconds or more, so as not to be hit by the blast of the bomb of the plane in front of you. . . . Another approach was to attack in small formation, for example three bombers at a time with the middle bomber leading the way and the other two following him down as his wingmen. Keeping formation complicated the dive but allowed for more attacks to be done in a short time. . . .
A dive from a cruising altitude of 12,000 feet to release altitude of 2,000 feet takes roughly 30 seconds. the time of fall of a bomb released at 2,000 feet is about 3 seconds. A ship at 30 knots travels about 50 meters in 3 seconds, which is not much compared to the 200-300m length of a major warship. A well-trained pilot can hit repeatedly within about 10-20m which should be compared to the 25-40m width of a major warship. This means that an attack can be made on any quarter and that a major warship is only able to do very limited evasive maneuvering while the bomb falls. On the other hand, once a dive has started, the pilot has committed himself to an aiming point and thus to where he thinks the target is going to be when it is time to release the bomb. If the target has maneuvered somewhere else, the pilot will have to adjust his dive and his accuracy will suffer."
As to what was actually done at Midway, there's this passage in Never Call Me a Hero, the recently published memoir of Jack "Dusty" Kleiss, who along with Dick Best, was the only one to score hits on two carriers on the same day. Here's a portion of his account of the attack on the Hiryu.
"I had just pushed over and I could see the string of three planes in line ahead of me. Had Hiryu remained on a steady course, Gallaher would have hit it, but the ship's sudden turn prevented that. The next pilot, Reid Stone, also missed. He was following Gallaher closely in his dive and likewise did not have time to correct. Thankfully, the third pilot, Richard Jaccard--a junior pilot who missed Kaga during the morning attack--delivered the first hit. The rookie's 500-pound bomb plunged through Hiryu's forward elevator, flinging the big steel slab up against the bridge.
As I plunged toward the sea, fourth in line, I remember thinking this was my toughest dive yet. In the morning, I had to hit a moving target. Now I had to hit not only a moving target, but one that was also in the middle of a sharp turn. In a few seconds, I sized up the enemy carrier and determined its speed and turning radius. Hiryu, smaller than Kaga and Akagi, turned remarkably fast. It's bow would be off its own port quarter in twenty seconds, meaning it could complete a 120-degree turn in that short a period of time. Yikes! Once again I aimed for the unblemished rising Sun on the flight deck. I didn't aim directly to hit the ship, but aimed for where the ship was going to be as it continued that turn.
I took my plane down to a low altitude--about 1,500 feet--and released my payload. My bombs plunged into Hiryu's flight deck."
Now, this is not to say that all the attacks at Midway were carried out this way (the morning attack was so confused that normal tactics might have been abandoned), but I wanted to enter these passages into the discussion.
Some of my Midway books are boxed up and I haven't been able to locate any information on Best's dive and possible contact with the sea. Do you remember where you got that information? (Gordon Prange's Miracle at Midway, perhaps?) However, I have a hard time believing that his wingtip actually dipped below the water, as depicted in the film. It just seems that the physics involved in such an event would have caused a crash. But I freely admit I could be wrong.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought you might be interested. It's great to meet someone who is as passionate about the battle as I am.
Posted on 11/24/19 at 4:29 am to TigerCard
The attack on the Hiryu is totally different than the formation attack, it was a combination of planes from mostly the Enterprise and Yorktown pilots and planes from what was left of the first attacks. 4 from VB-6, 6 from VS-6 and 14 from VB-3 (2 attacked a battleship from the last section). VB-3 was attacked by Zero's in the dive on the Hiryu.
VS-6 2 sections attacked first, then VB-3 and then VB-6. VB-6 report all misses by VS-6 and 1 hit by VB-3 and VB-6 claimed one hit.
The first dive on the Hiryu is by: Gallaher in the middle, Stone on his left and Jaccard on the right. The Hiryu turns causing two to miss. When he is saying in line it is in the normal formation of lead, one on the left and back a little and one on the right back a little. Jaccard being the enter most on the turn had the best chance to hit and did score a hit.
The reason for the formation is in case of what happened on this attack. The Hiryu turns meaning the lead two had little chance to hit and Jaccard being the far right plane had a small window of adjust on a long target.
Kleiss attacks in lead of the second section with Micheel on his left and Dexter on the right. There is spacing between planes, but they are not in a single file, it is a step formation attack still to box a section of a target area.
I have all the books on Midway and have a personal hand written account by Best. I collect the autographs of the personal in the attack, like Best, Wade, Kleiss, Dickerson, etc.
The Hiryu like many times in Kido Butai, did not know it was being attacked until way to late.
If you read the reports of the battle many claimed hits on the carriers that day, few hit. 24 planes (1 plane in Best's group is shot down before the attack) in the attack 4 to 5 hits, claimed hits are of course are higher.
Let me reread Best account, but I do not recall him saying his wing contacting the sea. When he pulled out of the dive he was very low to the sea, way below the flight deck of the Akagi. You can see in the picture of the Akagi her flight deck is way above the water line.
VS-6 2 sections attacked first, then VB-3 and then VB-6. VB-6 report all misses by VS-6 and 1 hit by VB-3 and VB-6 claimed one hit.
The first dive on the Hiryu is by: Gallaher in the middle, Stone on his left and Jaccard on the right. The Hiryu turns causing two to miss. When he is saying in line it is in the normal formation of lead, one on the left and back a little and one on the right back a little. Jaccard being the enter most on the turn had the best chance to hit and did score a hit.
The reason for the formation is in case of what happened on this attack. The Hiryu turns meaning the lead two had little chance to hit and Jaccard being the far right plane had a small window of adjust on a long target.
Kleiss attacks in lead of the second section with Micheel on his left and Dexter on the right. There is spacing between planes, but they are not in a single file, it is a step formation attack still to box a section of a target area.
I have all the books on Midway and have a personal hand written account by Best. I collect the autographs of the personal in the attack, like Best, Wade, Kleiss, Dickerson, etc.
The Hiryu like many times in Kido Butai, did not know it was being attacked until way to late.
If you read the reports of the battle many claimed hits on the carriers that day, few hit. 24 planes (1 plane in Best's group is shot down before the attack) in the attack 4 to 5 hits, claimed hits are of course are higher.
Let me reread Best account, but I do not recall him saying his wing contacting the sea. When he pulled out of the dive he was very low to the sea, way below the flight deck of the Akagi. You can see in the picture of the Akagi her flight deck is way above the water line.
Posted on 11/24/19 at 7:07 am to lsuroadie
quote:Well there have been a million really good WWII movies so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
why cant anyone make decent WW2 movies,
Posted on 11/24/19 at 7:00 pm to tigger1
Very cool that you have been able to get autographs of some of the important personnel. I don't have any of the American pilots, but I do have Mitsuo Fuchida's autograph. As I'm sure you know, after the war he became a Christian missionary and when I was about 13, he came to Pensacola (my hometown) and spoke at the First Baptist Church. (This would have been in '64, I believe.) I had recently finished reading his book on Midway, so my father took me to hear him speak. After his talk I approached him and got his autograph. As he was signing I mentioned that I had read his book on Midway. For a moment, he stopped writing and then said quietly, while still looking down at the paper, "Ah yes, Midway." The mention of the battle obviously brought back some painful memories. He signed his name in Japanese characters and English ("Capt. Mitsuo Fuchida") and underneath added a bible verse. When I got home I looked it up. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Let me know what you find out about Best's pullout after the Hiryu attack. Obviously not a huge point, but it just seemed to me one more example of the way the film makers got carried away with dramatic, and not quite realistic, CGI effects.
Let me know what you find out about Best's pullout after the Hiryu attack. Obviously not a huge point, but it just seemed to me one more example of the way the film makers got carried away with dramatic, and not quite realistic, CGI effects.
Posted on 11/24/19 at 7:12 pm to TigerCard
This was a solid feel-good WW2 flick. I enjoyed it very much, but the accents were terrible and the Dick Best actor was just laughably bad. So I can see why it was well-received by audiences but not critics on RT.
Posted on 11/24/19 at 7:28 pm to TigerCard
Very :csb:
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