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re: LOTR: Return of the King ending...

Posted on 1/26/19 at 11:03 pm to
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20359 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 11:03 pm to
quote:

any thoughts on the character Tom Bombadil, and why Jackson omitted him from the movie(s)?

Just too much for film.

a) that section is a different vein than the rest of the books, too light-hearted and whimsical. It would be practically impossible to 'film' him running through the rain, singing, and warding off the drops (he never got a drop on him).

b) Jackson could not use him without "using" him. Remember, he can see Frodo with the Ring on, and he can put the Ring on and not disappear. How do you introduce a character SO powerful, and then not return to him when things get desperate? Tolkien pulled it off in the books, but it'd be a disaster on film.

As an aside, he's such a divisive character that nobody would be pleased with the portrayal. Lots of people support the theory that he is, in fact, Eru in person (Master, First, etc).

Hell, someone posted a theory that he's not as nice as he seems, and laid out the case with a lot of in-book supporting evidence...
LINK
that's a fascinating read
Posted by JawjaTigah
Bizarro World
Member since Sep 2003
22498 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 6:36 am to
I like the linked piece. Bombadil was an enigma to me in reading LOTR. He just didn’t seem to connect to anything before or after. This theory at least makes sense.

He resides in the place of mystery, in absence of a full explanation by Tolkien.

One theory I read long ago was that Tom was some kind of a Christ figure, working goodness and light into dark places.
This post was edited on 1/27/19 at 6:39 am
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98662 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 8:12 am to
I have always been in the TB = Eru camp and Tolkien established Eru as a "hands off" supreme being.

Remember, Eru let Melkor attack Valinor and then fricking terrorize and torture Beleriand/Middle Earth in the First Age.

He then let his Lieutenant (Sauron) poison Numenor and then Middle Earth in the Second and Third Age.

I think Bombadil was his mortal presence did he could keep an eye on things, but he did not interfere.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 8:40 am to
I’ve come to the conclusion that Bombadil was an Ainur, the same class of being as were the Valar and Morgoth, and thus a literal god on earth in terms of power. The Silmarillion tells us that there were many more Ainur than just those that took an interest in Arda after its creation and came down to become the Valar, and Bombadil must have been one of those. Obviously he had interest in Arda, since he made his home there, but apparently he didn’t have any interest in its creation or governance (which is in line with the character as we know him). This would explain why he called himself “Eldest.” He was part of the song of creation.

Sauron, for all his might, was only an extremely powerful Maia, and thus Bombadil would be far more powerful than he, which is demonstrated when Bombadil puts on the Ring and it has absolutely no effect on him.

EDIT: I just read the linked article which suggests Bombadil is an ancient evil who helps the Hobbits out of selfish ambition. I enjoyed his theory, but I find it unconvincing. Bombadil as presented to us has no ambition of any kind whatsoever other than to enjoy and commune with nature. When it comes to Elves, Men, Hobbits, Orcs, Dwarves, etc., he is not evil but ambivalent. Evil trees and other nature spirits flourish in his domain because he doesn’t fear them or drive them out, and they in turn keep everyone else away from his home. Same for the Barrow-Wights. They exist in Bombadil’s realm because he takes no interest in them or their treasures and so simply leaves them be.
This post was edited on 1/27/19 at 8:55 am
Posted by Cow Drogo
Member since Jul 2016
7394 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 9:37 am to
quote:

Balrog

Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20359 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 12:26 pm to
quote:

I’ve come to the conclusion that Bombadil was an Ainur, the same class of being as were the Valar and Morgoth, and thus a literal god on earth in terms of power. The Silmarillion tells us that there were many more Ainur than just those that took an interest in Arda after its creation and came down to become the Valar, and Bombadil must have been one of those. Obviously he had interest in Arda, since he made his home there, but apparently he didn’t have any interest in its creation or governance (which is in line with the character as we know him). This would explain why he called himself “Eldest.” He was part of the song of creation.

Sauron, for all his might, was only an extremely powerful Maia, and thus Bombadil would be far more powerful than he, which is demonstrated when Bombadil puts on the Ring and it has absolutely no effect on him.
Tolkien himself was very evasive on Bombadil, and in his letters he always seemed to avoid defining him. He did seem to shoot theories down, but wouldn't then provide an alternate. I think he wanted to create an intentionally undefined presence.

In-book (and onscreen), Gandalf makes the comments that this whole crisis is fleeting, as terrible as it seems. There are also multiple statements that Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo were "meant" to find the Ring, and that is a comforting thought. That suggests there is far more out there than we are shown, Powers greater than Sauron at work, that even the Wise do not perceive in detail. I always took that as the Valar at work, but it could possibly include Bombadil too... as a Vala, or outside their scope.

Tulkas, the last Vala to enter Arda, who wrestled and defeated Morgoth in combat- he was also said to be merry and full of laughter. But he wasn't "first" or "eldest", and I can't remember if he came before Morgoth made the night full of terror.
quote:

It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was any thing that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand. But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.

Hmm, so Tulkas WAS the last Vala to enter, but it does seem he came in prior to any life present. And since Morgoth fled to the outer darkness, you COULD say he remembered the Night before Morgoth came (back).

His description
quote:

Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend.

So, Tulkas is seen as ruddy with a beard, has mastery in combat (as a Vala, that goes beyond the physical), he seems associated with laughter. As an Ainur, singing would be far more than just making noise, it's the means of Power deployment.
Bombadil sings and laughs, apparently never loses, runs around through rain without getting a drop on him.

You could easily make that connection too. And both his overall demeanor (no avail as a counsellor), and the Valar's commitment to not interfere with Middle Earth directly anymore, those fit why you can't ask him to join the Fellowship. He would keep others safe from the Wild, but he can't/won't engage Sauron directly, as his full manifestation would cause too much collateral damage... and it's no longer the place for the Valar to interfere.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20359 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 12:50 pm to
Some will say Bombadil =/= Tulkas, citing the following information:

Tom says he remembered the night before the Dark Lord came, before there was fear of the dark.
Tulkas was the last Vala to enter Arda, and changed the balance (Morgoth was winning prior to his entry).

But... referring to the first wars: that was before Arda was complete, and there was zero life on it as of yet.
Semantics maybe (but Tolkien WAS an English professor, and LOVED semantics ), but there was no Middle Earth until AFTER Tulkas entered. There was no night as such, no stars in the sky, etc. Everything was still primordial. They drove Morgoth out, and then completed Arda.
And the Valar were then the first sentience that was present within it (Tulkas included). He WAS there already when Yavanna started putting plants on it, and was there before the Trees began to light up the world.
So, he would still fit.
Posted by molsusports
Member since Jul 2004
36110 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 1:39 pm to
quote:

I have always been in the TB = Eru camp and Tolkien established Eru as a "hands off" supreme being.

Remember, Eru let Melkor attack Valinor and then fricking terrorize and torture Beleriand/Middle Earth in the First Age.

He then let his Lieutenant (Sauron) poison Numenor and then Middle Earth in the Second and Third Age.

I think Bombadil was his mortal presence did he could keep an eye on things, but he did not interfere.




I think those are pretty close to my opinions as well. It seems like people don't like this type of analysis but he is a good analogy for the non-interventionist god that many Christians believe in.
Posted by L5UT1ger
Member since Feb 2004
2599 posts
Posted on 1/27/19 at 2:11 pm to
Seems like Liv could have made The returned king her special guest. Sheesh. Women.
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