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LOTR: Return of the King ending...

Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:39 pm
Posted by ksdolfan
Houma, La.
Member since Sep 2007
1535 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:39 pm
Where are Frodo, Bildo, Gandalf and the other Elves going? And why? Is it explained better in the book?
Posted by td01241
Savannah
Member since Nov 2012
22836 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:42 pm to
Alright then, keep your secrets
Posted by LuckyTiger
Someone's Alter
Member since Dec 2008
45089 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:42 pm to
The undying lands. Think of it as elf heaven. Only elves and their special guests can go.

That is the incredibly simplistic in a nutshell version. Perhaps a LOTR nerd can give you the full details.
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98276 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:48 pm to
^^^ pretty much it.
Posted by Green Chili Tiger
Lurking the Tin Foil Hat Board
Member since Jul 2009
47509 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:49 pm to
quote:

The undying lands. Think of it as elf heaven. Only elves and their special guests can go.



Pretty much this. Frodo and Bilbo get to go because they were ring bearers.
Posted by Bread Orgeron
Baw Bakery
Member since Aug 2006
11848 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 1:55 pm to
quote:

Frodo and Bilbo get to go because they were ring bearers


Eventually Sam gets to go as well, since he was a ring bearer for a very brief period.
Posted by Upperdecker
St. George, LA
Member since Nov 2014
30521 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 2:05 pm to
Essentially what LuckyTiger said. It’s fully detailed in The Silmarrion, though im not sure they say that’s where Frodo and Bilbo are going. But the elves are going to the undying lands (Valinor)

The elves were created their by the gods, the Vallar. They lived together for a time. It’s a blessed land. The elves separated from the Vallar bc of evil. So they went to Arda, the Earth. Middle Earth is in Arda. Man was created there and the elves helped man survive and thrive and overcome evil. Once Sauron was defeated, the elves had no reason to stay, as evil was gone from the world and man had proven they were fit to protect themselves and the world around them. The “Age of Men”. Then the elves were welcomed back, bc the Vallar still loved them and wanted to have them return to their ancestral home
Posted by molsusports
Member since Jul 2004
36099 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 2:22 pm to
He gave the land a name but Tolkien stopped short of spelling out the meanings of the metaphor for the reader.

You are therefor coming pretty close to asking directly about something I find very interesting about the Tolkien fantasy series. The influences that shaped it, the fables that we are intended to absorb and the flexibility of the work to allow the reader to enjoy it at multiple levels.

Here's a little wikipedia run down of some of that:

LINK

Anyway, to expound a little bit on the stuff discussed in the link and how it relates to the question in the OP.

1) You could (should IMO) view this as the journey to the afterlife. The most pure were allowed and in this form of salvation they were not only marked as special but also separated from the ones with whom they had lived - and we the less special remain after they have departed from our existence. This is a common theme of almost all religions including the ones mentioned in the linked wiki (eternal salvation, life, other rewards such as knowledge, etc come after death).

2) The fantastic and magical forces of middle earth were fading and being permanently lost. This is not directly spelled out in the link provided but of course it is a common feature of all religions in which the magical lore of the religion is mostly historical with the afterlife being the promised time in which we can again encounter the breadth of the spectacle we are told once was common.

3) There are important secular interpretations as well. The elves, ring bearers, wizards who were most special making their one way journey to the afterlife was an extension of magic (nature) being removed permanently from the middle earth (earth) in which the fictional characters he created (and real world in which Tolkien lived at the start of the 20th century) lived. Further, the specter of war and technology being used to destroy was an incredibly relevant meme for a man living through world wars (LOTR is essentially a world war of middle earth). The greed of the dwarfs at times in both the Hobbit and the LOTR is a Shakespearean level character flaw modeled after modern (and historical) human avarice that compounds on top of the other dangers of the world to escalate conflict and destruction.
Posted by Jack Ruby
Member since Apr 2014
22687 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 4:07 pm to
As stated above, they're going to Valinor, or the Undying lands, where most of the Elves and essentially the gods of the world live. It's across the sea to the west and only immortals, unless you are specially invited, like Frodo, can go.

Think of it as comparable to the antideluvian world in biblical terms, or paradise, but it's still beholdened to the Earth (Arda) and is not some otherworldly dimension or realm. It's there just no mortals can now sail there.

Frodo though will still die eventually and go to the afterlife. The elves do not leave the earth until its end.

Here are maps of the undying lands.

The first is an ancient map when Valinor used to be attached to middle earth and the two were kind of thought of as one.

Laterz after many wars and ancient evils, the continent was split and moved so no mortal could ever get there again and so the elves and gods were separated from the rest of the world.

Ancient map:




Split map:
Posted by Muthsera
Member since Jun 2017
7319 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 4:16 pm to
Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf go with the majority of the remaining elves.

Sam goes later.

Legolas and Gimli go later still.

Aragorn and Arwen stay in Middle Earth and die mortal deaths.
Posted by Azazello
Member since Sep 2011
3179 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 4:20 pm to
Since we are on the topic of LOTR and there are some knowledgable folks in here - perhaps someone can answer my question.

In FOTR when the group goes into Moria, what happened to all of the dwarves? They were one of the largest races in middle earth and they're totally gone from Moria and we don't hear anything else about them (are there other cities full of dwarves?)

Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98276 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 5:24 pm to
Actually, after the Fall of Numenor (after Ar Pharazon led the force to take The Undying Lands), Valinor was removed by the Valar from the same plane as Middle Earth so that the ships sailing to the UL actually went on a straight plane, and not along the curvature of the Earth.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20255 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 5:38 pm to
quote:

Since we are on the topic of LOTR and there are some knowledgable folks in here - perhaps someone can answer my question.

In FOTR when the group goes into Moria, what happened to all of the dwarves? They were one of the largest races in middle earth and they're totally gone from Moria and we don't hear anything else about them (are there other cities full of dwarves?)


Tolkien nerdist recap

Dwarves...

The Valar are basically corresponding to the Olympian gods, who serve under the ultimate rule of Eru (the Creator, corresponds to judeo-christian God).

The Valar Aule, the smith, basically matches up with Roman Vulcan/Greek Hephaestus. He builds things...
before the Elves (the Firstborn) awoke, he was impatient and wanted to bring a people to Middle Earth. He made the Dwarves. It was a bit of a no-no, since it was bypassing the bigger plan of Elves and Men. So he was confronted and was going to destroy them, but Eru relented and granted the Dwarves sentience and life. But they also had to sleep until the Firstborn awoke.

Since they were made by Aule and not Eru, they are uglier and cruder in form. He made 7, who founded the 7 houses or tribes of the Dwarves. Since they are separate, their speech is totally different from any other race. They are not immortal and they don't get the 'real' afterlife granted Men, but it's somewhat thought that they go through reincarnation instead.

They're never really plentiful. They're kinda the unwanted stepchild race of Middle Earth.

Moria: that was initially their main kingdom, where they first awoke etc.
Notice through Tolkien's work in the Silmarillion and LOTR etc, Elves and Men of significance spent their times far West of Moria and the Misty Mountains... Middle Earth used to extend far West of the later coastline. As the ages passed, Men and Elves moved East, coming closer to where the Dwarves lived in force. Also Sauron and other refugees from Morgoth's rule moved East, too.

So they kinda took up isolated lives and dwellings, as the other races and Powers came in.

They were driven out of Moria by Goblins after many wars, in large part because of the Balrog (Durin's Bane) that came.
So they migrated to the North, to the Lonely Mountain and the Iron Hills, and set up shop there. Smaug drove them from the Lonely Mountain, leading to the Hobbit.
After winning back the Lonely Mountain at the end of the Hobbit (Battle of Five Armies), they felt their oats, so to speak, and desired to win back Moria. So Balin took a sizable force and attempted to reclaim it.
As had happened before, the Dwarves were capable of beating back the Goblins, but were no match for the Balrog.

Since it sounds like you know only the movies and not the booklore, a bit of clarification on the bad guys:

Sauron was a Maia, originally one of Aule's people. By Hobbit/LOTR time, he's the strongest single entity left in Middle Earth.
That Balrog we see in FOTR, is of the same race as Sauron, and quite possibly the 2nd strongest left (Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast are also of that race). The Wizards weren't supposed to use direct force, whereas the bad guys (Sauron, the Balrog) had no such restrictions.

Smaug the dragon was a terrible critter, but just that- a critter. An evolved-for-war beast, with intelligence and lots of physical ability, but not of the spiritual level of the others (who correspond to angels and demons).

So- the Balrog was a demon, not just a beast. The Dwarves of Moria had zero hope of defeating it.
Posted by Boo Krewe
Member since Apr 2015
9810 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 5:48 pm to
dwarves had a city in erebor after hobbit

there was one in helsm deep too

LOTR neglected dwarf culture
didnt sauron want to use smaug
This post was edited on 1/26/19 at 5:51 pm
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1471 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 6:21 pm to
quote:

LOTR neglected dwarf culture


Tolkien was actively working on them still when he died. He had begun on their language and left us works to do with the unmentioned dwarf clans of the Far East. Unfortunately they were just the last in line and Christopher hasn’t or isn’t willing to flesh them out more.
Posted by JawjaTigah
Bizarro World
Member since Sep 2003
22493 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 6:34 pm to
quote:

The undying lands
Wasnt this also referred to as the “Gray Havens”?
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20255 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 6:38 pm to
quote:

dwarves had a city in erebor after hobbit

Lonely Mountain, yes
quote:

there was one in helsm deep too
Glittering Caves of Aglarond. Thought Gimli brought some folks to establish that after the fact, although the Dwarves might have been there in the past.

Elves and Men in the First Age, story centered on Beleriand (lands west of the current coastline, only the Gray Havens still exist, and they were once towards the East of the Elven kingdoms). All of Beleriand was literally wiped off the face of the Earth during the war to defeat Morgoth.

Been awhile since I read it so I might be off some, but the way I recall:

Yes, Dwarves were involved at times in the First Age wars, but they never migrated West like Elves and Men had. So they were still established in lands East of Beleriand, and so they traveled back and forth.

I want to say the big Roads in LOTR and the Hobbit were actually Dwarve roads. The one that goes through the Shire was originally the path they took for trading in Beleriand. If you notice, the Roads do seem to link Dwarven cities- East-West goes from the Shire (Havens, Beleriand in the past...) all the way to Erebor.
North-South (the Greenway) goes down to Moria (and Eregion, and later down to Gondor).

The Dwarves were already established when the Elves and Men moved back East, which is why for the most part, the Elven kingdoms were close to Dwarven ones. Desirable lands.

quote:

didnt sauron want to use smaug

yep. Smaug was a refugee from Angband, the Kingdom of Morgoth in the North. Managed to escape the end of the First Age, just like the Balrog. Sauron, the Balrog and Smaug were the 3 baddest things left in ME.

Smaug was not a major threat, wasn't high on the White Council's list (they were more concerned with Sauron); but Gandalf was clearly concerned that Sauron might acquire his services. Smaug was more of a free-agent marauder, don't think he served Sauron ever (just Morgoth, so yeah Sauron would indirectly be in the chain of command). A legit dragon would have been a gamechanger on the field, so Gandalf helped push his removal before Sauron could get traction.

The Balrog is actually an enigma... don't think think the White Council knew (outside of Saruman, who was scheming). Don't think it declared for Sauron either; instead it laid low in the depths of Moria avoiding discovery. Had it found/taken the Ring, it's very questionable whether it would have given it up to Sauron, or instead supplanted him.
The books address it in more detail than the movies, as it described it casting spells and magic greater than Gandalf had ever faced... so intelligent. But again, an evil free agent, and not aligned with Sauron.

Saruman, btw, was also double-dealing. He somewhat was in league with Sauron, but also wanted the Ring for himself- and thus supplant him.
Posted by Scoob
Near Exxon
Member since Jun 2009
20255 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 6:43 pm to
quote:

quote:

The undying lands

Wasnt this also referred to as the “Gray Havens”?

No

The Gray Havens were the last little chunk of Beleriand that didn't get destroyed, and was thus right on the coast. Incidentally just West of the Shire.

This remaining spot was basically the port for the Elves; Cirdan the Shipwright ruled there, and made Elven ships so they could sail to the Undying Lands.

The Istari (the Wizards) landed there, coming FROM the undying lands. Cirdan originally had one of the Three Elven Rings, but gave it to Gandalf.
Posted by sorantable
Member since Dec 2008
48661 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 6:51 pm to
quote:

Wasnt this also referred to as the “Gray Havens”?

Pretty sure the Gray Havens are where the boats left Middle Earth.
Posted by JawjaTigah
Bizarro World
Member since Sep 2003
22493 posts
Posted on 1/26/19 at 6:58 pm to
This whole thread is outstanding!

Wondering - any thoughts on the character Tom Bombadil, and why Jackson omitted him from the movie(s)?
This post was edited on 1/26/19 at 7:12 pm
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