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Posted on 12/27/15 at 7:13 pm to HeadChange
quote:
Hope you've never borrowed a DVD and watched the movie. That'd be awkward.
Never said I haven't done any of these
Posted on 12/27/15 at 8:27 pm to LeonPhelps
quote:what if I bought a digital movie through a digital vendor like vudu, apple, Xbox, ect..., then they lose the license to sell/give access to to that movie.
but anyone who steals movies is a giant piece of shite.
Am I a piece of shite for torrenting a movie I paid for?
Posted on 12/27/15 at 9:41 pm to jeff5891
Yes.
Posted on 12/27/15 at 9:50 pm to CajunAlum Tiger Fan
I'm old enough to remember the emergence of Limewire etc for music, it's basically the same concept. Has the same ethical conflicts, and probably the same resolution. People spending hundreds of millions of dollars will push the issue and sue some poor kid, the hackers and spyware and viruses will become too much risk, and things will drift back to basically the same as it is now.
Posted on 12/27/15 at 10:10 pm to LeonPhelps
Is it "stealing" to watch an illegal stream?
Posted on 12/28/15 at 9:34 am to Freauxzen
quote:
But, this isn't about the law. It's about the act of paying someone to consume their content. Either you are or you aren't. Not paying to consume content is stealing, unless someone offers it to everyone for free. That's what this conversation boils down to.
No, it doesn't. This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways to consume content for free that are perfectly legal and legitimate, and others that are not. To say the two are the same is plainly false. What a person can do with content is determined by contract, and if the person violates the contract, they aren't really "breaking the law", as the remedy is in contract not criminal justice.
Stealing? Well, stealing is criminal.
quote:
Even though borrowing is legal, in the sense of this conversation, it's CERTAINLY stealing.
This statement doesn't make sense. This thing which is perfectly legal is certainly illegal. No. No, it isn't. The thing that is perfectly legal is certainly legal.
quote:
The person who bought the DVD, in terms of the content creator, has the right to watch the film. No one else does. Simple as that. Just like a movie ticket, they need to pay for that right to the content creator.
Actually, no. The person who buys a DVD has all sorts of rights to distribute the material and use it as (s)he sees fit. However, a person may WAIVE his/her rights to first sale by contract. If a person receives a free screener, they almost certainly have agreed to terms in which they waive the first sale doctrine rights. So, while a person who buys a DVD may lend it to a friend or even resell it, a person with a screener MAY NOT because they have different contractual rights.
The solution is simple. Track the screeners, and if your screener ends up on a torrent site or whatever, you owe the studio compensation for every single download/stream. So, if you you put your screener on a torrent site, the remedy is in contract: you owe the amount of compensation the creator has been deprived of. IF, say, one million people stream the movie, and the standard cost to stream a new release is, what? $10? Then you owe $10 million.
The person downloading is likely on the hook for the $10, and the person who put the screener on the site can try and collect from each person who streamed a copy, as there is no earthly way they are bona fide purchasers (they all knew this was an illegally procured copy because a legal stream does not exist yet).
Go after the people who violate the contract and get your remedy in contract.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 9:34 am to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
Is it "stealing" to watch an illegal stream?
Yes. Were you unconscious the day they went over "ethics" in school? That isn't even a difficult question. Let the word "illegal" be your guide.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 9:52 am to SoGaFan
quote:
Well, it sounds like screeners might not be around much longer especially of films that aren't out in theaters. They were always an expensive proposition for low budget movies, and the fact they are now being used by people to make pirated downloads, yeah, I think they get phased out pretty quick.
We get voting screeners for the Independent Spirit Awards each year. Last year was the first year where one studio gave us a link to view online, instead of a DVD of their film.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 9:56 am to Baloo
quote:Which law does it break?
Yes. Were you unconscious the day they went over "ethics" in school? That isn't even a difficult question. Let the word "illegal" be your guide.
ETA: And don't just say "Copyright Law." Show your work.
I've looked into it, and unless I missed something, I can't find where simply viewing an illegal stream is itself illegal.
This post was edited on 12/28/15 at 10:10 am
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:29 am to Baloo
quote:
quote:But, this isn't about the law. It's about the act of paying someone to consume their content. Either you are or you aren't. Not paying to consume content is stealing, unless someone offers it to everyone for free. That's what this conversation boils down to. No, it doesn't. This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways to consume content for free that are perfectly legal and legitimate, and others that are not. To say the two are the same is plainly false. What a person can do with content is determined by contract, and if the person violates the contract, they aren't really "breaking the law", as the remedy is in contract not criminal justice. Stealing? Well, stealing is criminal. quote:Even though borrowing is legal, in the sense of this conversation, it's CERTAINLY stealing. This statement doesn't make sense. This thing which is perfectly legal is certainly illegal. No. No, it isn't. The thing that is perfectly legal is certainly legal. quote:The person who bought the DVD, in terms of the content creator, has the right to watch the film. No one else does. Simple as that. Just like a movie ticket, they need to pay for that right to the content creator. Actually, no. The person who buys a DVD has all sorts of rights to distribute the material and use it as (s)he sees fit. However, a person may WAIVE his/her rights to first sale by contract. If a person receives a free screener, they almost certainly have agreed to terms in which they waive the first sale doctrine rights. So, while a person who buys a DVD may lend it to a friend or even resell it, a person with a screener MAY NOT because they have different contractual rights. The solution is simple. Track the screeners, and if your screener ends up on a torrent site or whatever, you owe the studio compensation for every single download/stream. So, if you you put your screener on a torrent site, the remedy is in contract: you owe the amount of compensation the creator has been deprived of. IF, say, one million people stream the movie, and the standard cost to stream a new release is, what? $10? Then you owe $10 million. The person downloading is likely on the hook for the $10, and the person who put the screener on the site can try and collect from each person who streamed a copy, as there is no earthly way they are bona fide purchasers (they all knew this was an illegally procured copy because a legal stream does not exist yet). Go after the people who violate the contract and get your remedy in contract.
I cannot upvote this enough
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:36 am to jeff5891
quote:
what if I bought a digital movie through a digital vendor like vudu, apple, Xbox, ect..., then they lose the license to sell/give access to to that movie.
Am I a piece of shite for torrenting a movie I paid for?
i mean
that's the risk you take buying digital movies
i still buy hard copies of some DVDs and Blu Rays for this reason
This post was edited on 12/28/15 at 10:37 am
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:38 am to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
I can't find where simply viewing an illegal stream is itself illegal.
that's just a funny statement by itself
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:40 am to Baloo
quote:
No, it doesn't. This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways to consume content for free that are perfectly legal and legitimate, and others that are not. To say the two are the same is plainly false. What a person can do with content is determined by contract, and if the person violates the contract, they aren't really "breaking the law", as the remedy is in contract not criminal justice.
Stealing? Well, stealing is criminal.
Weren't/aren't something like Mix Tapes against the law though, technically? The only difference with streaming/downloading is the breadth and ease of doing it.
quote:
This statement doesn't make sense. This thing which is perfectly legal is certainly illegal. No. No, it isn't. The thing that is perfectly legal is certainly legal.
I took Leon's comment to be about the difference between something that is legal, but immoral. In that, it's immoral to not pay a content creator to view their content, regardless if it's legal or not. That was the direction of the initial comments in this thread.
quote:
The solution is simple. Track the screeners, and if your screener ends up on a torrent site or whatever, you owe the studio compensation for every single download/stream. So, if you you put your screener on a torrent site, the remedy is in contract: you owe the amount of compensation the creator has been deprived of. IF, say, one million people stream the movie, and the standard cost to stream a new release is, what? $10? Then you owe $10 million.
Completely agree.
quote:
Go after the people who violate the contract and get your remedy in contract.
Agreed. This is really an issue about access and arbitrary measures of control. Balancing those two is tough.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:41 am to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
I've looked into it, and unless I missed something, I can't find where simply viewing an illegal stream is itself illegal.
That's the key difference. Possessing a download is illegal, streaming is not since you never actually possess it. Laws haven't caught up to this.
However, it is immoral, and that's the argument here, not paying the content creator to view their work.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:43 am to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
I've looked into it, and unless I missed something, I can't find where simply viewing an illegal stream is itself illegal.
It falls outside the First Sale Doctrine and it is not Fair Use. You are using someone else's intellectual property without an exception to the rule which justifies its use. On top of that, you BY DEFINITION, know the stream is illegitimate. We're calling it an "illegal stream".
This is like buying a TV from the back of a truck. You didn't heist the TV, but you know you are not purchasing it by legitimate means. You are offered no protection under the law as a bona fide purchaser, because you have knowledge that the person selling/giving you the item does not have the right to do so.
This is basic contract law. Also, the fact that people have been, ya know, arrested for just downloading one movie (it's a bit of bad luck more than anything to get nailed for it) proves that it is against the law. Though usually they just have to pay the fine. But the fact that law enforcement will arrest you if they can find you proves that it IS illegal. Now, courts are beginning to throw out arrests because of the difficulty of pinning an IP address on one person, but that's a specificity problem in finding the offender, not that the offense exists.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:47 am to Baloo
You're not differentiating between illegally downloading and viewing an illegal stream. They are different in the eyes of the law.
I want to know why you think it is illegal to simply view an illegal stream.
I want to know why you think it is illegal to simply view an illegal stream.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:48 am to Freauxzen
quote:This is the conclusion I reached, as well.
That's the key difference. Possessing a download is illegal, streaming is not since you never actually possess it. Laws haven't caught up to this.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:49 am to LeonPhelps
quote:
I've never heard of Kodi, but anyone who steals movies is a giant piece of shite.
And anyone who waste's money on the movie theaters is a dumb pos
Posted on 12/28/15 at 10:55 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Weren't/aren't something like Mix Tapes against the law though, technically? The only difference with streaming/downloading is the breadth and ease of doing it.
No. they weren't. Unless you were making a bunch of copies and then selling them. this is what the First Sale Doctrine is. You control the content that you purchased,so long as the use was private.
quote:
I took Leon's comment to be about the difference between something that is legal, but immoral. In that, it's immoral to not pay a content creator to view their content, regardless if it's legal or not. That was the direction of the initial comments in this thread.
Your comment was about legality, but it is also immoral. Of course it is. You are denying creators compensation for their art. They made something, you enjoyed it, you owe them money. That's how they make a living and get to keep making things. Now, the creator will sometimes put stuff out there for free, or will consent to fair use (a Blue Ray is clearly going to be played multiple times, and you don't always have to be alone in your house). But if you are trying to come up with an ethical way to deprive artists of their just compensation then... you're going to be looking for a long time.
Now, if you're a poor college kid, most of us will look the other way. But once you have a job, it is your duty as a part of the artistic community to be a patron. If you enjoy art, pay for it. That's how they get to make more.
I'm not saying that if you've ever downloaded anything illegally, you're going to hell. You're not. But it is not ethical to do so, and if you're not paying for any art at all, then you're not just blowing past a stop sign, you're a reckless driver. I'll admit that I use Spotify to try out albums, and the artist sees almost no money out of that. But if I like what they made, then I will either buy a download of the album or if I really like it, get it on vinyl. But if I used it as a means to totally circumvent paying artists for their work, then that would be unethical (though, in this case, perfectly legal... Spotify is legalized theft, honestly... artists get completely hosed).
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