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re: A question after finishing A Dance with Dragons (Spoilers)

Posted on 6/7/12 at 10:52 pm to
Posted by BluegrassBelle
RIP Hefty Lefty - 1981-2019
Member since Nov 2010
108010 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 10:52 pm to
quote:

Don't remember exactly what the witch said but all of it is figurative not literal


"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
Posted by auyushu
Surprise, AZ
Member since Jan 2011
9977 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 10:57 pm to
quote:

Do you think the Prince Who Was Promised is the same as Azor Ahai? Probably the most interesting theory I've read is that Jon is the Prince Who Was Promised and Dany is Azor Ahai (her dragons as Lightbringer, not a sword or that possibly Lightbringer has yet to be found).



Beyond all the dreams and Mel's visions of Jon while asking to see AA, Jon's death scene fulfills all the parts of Azor Ahai being reborn in the series as well. If he's not AA then Martin is doing some major fake out action.

As for the sample chapters Belle, I haven't found anywhere to read the actual ones, but you can read a synopsis and discussion of all three that he's read so far (Arianne, Victarion, and Tyrion) at Westeros.

Westeros
Posted by Puck82
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2009
23949 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:05 pm to
I'm not sure where he is going with Dany but you can see some is coming true. And snow has to be AA. all the elements were there. Salt, smoke and mel constantly sees Jon in her flames while asking about AA now. Maybe she saw stannis at first because he would lead her to Jon. her flame visions are not perfect.
Posted by BluegrassBelle
RIP Hefty Lefty - 1981-2019
Member since Nov 2010
108010 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:06 pm to
Thanks. I may just have to watch the videos of Martin reading them this weekend.

quote:

Beyond all the dreams and Mel's visions of Jon while asking to see AA, Jon's death scene fulfills all the parts of Azor Ahai being reborn in the series as well. If he's not AA then Martin is doing some major fake out action.


Here's the bit they have from the Tower of the Hand about Dany potentially being AA.

quote:

6) Daenerys Targaryen Far and away the most likely candidate for Azor Ahai, Dany fits all the requirements. She awoke the dragons out of her petrified stone eggs, on the very night she spotted the comet for the first time. (AGOT p804). That night, there was smoke from the funeral pyre and salt from Dany's tears. And she was 'reborn' in the sense that she emerged from the fire a stronger person--a leader whom the Dothraki would follow. But how does Dany's story match up with Salladhor's? Well, one suggestion has been that her dragons are actually Lightbringer, because they can produce fire. This makes a great amount of sense. Like Azor Ahai, Dany tried three times to make her weapon--once while putting them on a brazier (AGOT p593), once while coming out of her fevered nightmares (AGOT p753-754), and finally succeeding on the third try at Drogo's pyre. Also, like Azor Ahai, Dany sacrificed her spouse to make her weapon, and drew the weapon out of a fire. Other people merely think that Lightbringer is still a sword, and perhaps Dany will find it elsewhere, maybne in Asshai or far east. But the fact remains that, of all the candidates, Dany is the only one who has woken dragons out of stone. Unless another character is going to accomplish the same thing, Dany seems like a safe bet to be Azor Ahai reborn.


All kinds of good theories about AA (Tower of the Hand Essay)
Posted by John McClane
Member since Apr 2010
37180 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:07 pm to
quote:

She is no longer barren or soon not to be. The sun rose in the west and set in the east (the prince from doren came from westeros and died in the east), dothraki sea of grass is drying up and the dragons will probably set fire to it, the mountain is dead or deadish. Don't remember exactly what the witch said but all of it is figurative not literal
mind blown
Posted by auyushu
Surprise, AZ
Member since Jan 2011
9977 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:14 pm to
quote:

Here's the bit they have from the Tower of the Hand about Dany potentially being AA.



Yeah, she fills most of them as well, it could definitely be either.

But Jon dies under the bleeding star (the knight who Wun Wun bashes to death has stars as his sigil), his wounds are smoking from the cold, and there is salt from at least one of his killer's tears. Of course he would have to wake dragons from stone after being born again.

It would just fit Martin's twisting of prophecy to make it all figurative rather than literal, much like Dany's period/womb action in ADWD.

Tower of the Hand needs to update for ADWD info.
This post was edited on 6/7/12 at 11:16 pm
Posted by joeyb147
Member since Jun 2009
16019 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:27 pm to
quote:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Hol E. shite

I totally missed how this hits at the end of ADWDs.

Also, if GRRM dies before finishing this series, I will haunt him for eternity in whatever hell he gets sent to.
Posted by Puck82
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2009
23949 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:28 pm to
The whole dies under the bleeding star is the main reason why I think it's Jon and not Dany.
Posted by BluegrassBelle
RIP Hefty Lefty - 1981-2019
Member since Nov 2010
108010 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:30 pm to
quote:

Yeah, she fills most of them as well, it could definitely be either.


Something too that I read at westeros.org is that the translation of the "prince" who was promised may not necessarily be prince but instead princess (which leads me to believe maybe Jon is AA and Dany is the PwwP too):

quote:

Most importantly, Rhaegar re-iterates the idea that the dragon has three heads. If true prophecies must be fulfilled -- and not all readers agree that this is the case, citing the apparently-failed prophecy of the dosh khaleen concerning Rhaego -- then it's important to discern who they are. It seems obvious that Daenerys must be one, not least because Aemon points out that "prince" is an error of translation, that among the Valyrians the term was as fluid in terms of gender as the gender of dragons was, and could just as well apply to a princess (IV: 520). But who are the others? Martin has stated that Rhaenys is definitely dead, but also that the three heads need not be Targaryens. Using these points of data, strong contenders for a place as one of the heads of the dragon are Jon Show (either as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, or simply as Ned Stark's bastard), Aegon Targaryen (who, according to theory, was replaced by another child and spirited away to safety before the Sack), Tyrion Lannister (either in his proper person or as Aerys's son after a rape or seduction of Joanna Lannister), as well as Arya or even the Hound.


The Dragon Has Three Heads
Posted by John McClane
Member since Apr 2010
37180 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:39 pm to
Wait a second.... Tyrion may not be Tywin's son?!

Posted by Puck82
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2009
23949 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:47 pm to
There may be other options to the waking dragons from stone besides dany hatching the dragon eggs. Aren't there locations where there are actual stone dragons (statues). Maybe one of those is actually a real dragon waiting for a little magic to awaken it. I think they talk about some being almost lifelike. I mean weirder shite has happened.
Posted by BluegrassBelle
RIP Hefty Lefty - 1981-2019
Member since Nov 2010
108010 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:50 pm to
quote:

Wait a second.... Tyrion may not be Tywin's son?!


There's apparently a theory for that. I'm not sure I believe it (the passage I quoted hasn't been revised in a couple years) but here's one that was recently edited regarding Tyrion.

quote:

6.2.14. WHO IS TYRION’S FATHER? It has been occasionally proposed that there is reason to doubt Tyrion Lannister’s paternity. Items such as his extremely pale blond hair, which stands in contrast to the golden blond of his family, have been made note of, as has Tyrion’s fascination with dragons. Some also note that his statement in A Storm of Swords suggests Tywin has doubts as to Tyrion’s paternity: “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine.” Finally, the prophecy of the dragon having “three heads” has been taken to mean that Tyrion is one of the three heads, and so a future dragon rider, necessitating his having Targaryen blood. A Dance with Dragons does provide a thread of support for the theory that Tyrion is not Tywin’s. Barristan Selmy reports the following to Daenerys: “Prince Aerys . . . as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the . . . the liberties your father took during the bedding.” The common speculation is that Aerys Targaryen raped or seduced Joanna Lannister at some point, leading to Tyrion’s birth and Joanna’s death, and this at least provides proof that Aerys was interested in Joanna. However, the objections are obvious. Why did Tywin continue to serve as Aerys’s Hand if he suspected this? So far as Tywin or anyone else ever indicates, his departure from the role of Hand and his fateful break from Aerys were the result of long-building tensions thanks to the king’s madness and his stealing away of Ser Jaime to serve in the Kingsguard. For that matter, why did he persist in trying to wed his daughter to Aerys’s heir, if he had cause to hate Aerys so much? The response to this might be that Tywin suspects Tyrion’s paternity but does not have Aerys (or, perhaps, anyone) in mind as the culprit, or perhaps that he learned about this fact only long after the fact. The latter seems a weak counter, as it hand-waves the details and simply leaves a nebulous possibility that can’t be rejected but really has no evidence for it. The former, however, seems a better objection—though again, unprovable, especially now as Tywin is dead. On a metatextual level, it seems as if there’s much greater force to having Tyrion in fact be Tywin’s son—and thereby maintain his status as a kinslayer, among other things—than to reveal that in fact he is a secret Targaryen bastard, especially as it seems the narrative has already provided not one, but two, secret Targaryen offspring (see the FAQ entries on Jon Snow and Young Griff).


LINK
Posted by CottonWasKing
4,8,15,16,23,42
Member since Jun 2011
29538 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:57 pm to
The main reason Tower of the Hand discounts Jon being AA reborn is because they haven't updated since ADWD has been out. Jon was a long shot at best until ADWD where he jumped out in front of everyone.
Posted by auyushu
Surprise, AZ
Member since Jan 2011
9977 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:57 pm to
quote:

There's apparently a theory for that. I'm not sure I believe it (the passage I quoted hasn't been revised in a couple years) but here's one that was recently edited regarding Tyrion.


Yeah, I'm not sure I can really buy it given the timelines either. Tywin just stayed on as hand way too long after the fact if that was the case.
Posted by CottonWasKing
4,8,15,16,23,42
Member since Jun 2011
29538 posts
Posted on 6/7/12 at 11:59 pm to
There is no way I buy Tyrion being Aery's son.
Posted by John McClane
Member since Apr 2010
37180 posts
Posted on 6/8/12 at 12:09 am to
Ok, time to re-read from the beginning.

Question: Tyrion is the youngest Tywin Lannister child so there should be no talk of the king's first right with the wife, right?
Posted by auyushu
Surprise, AZ
Member since Jan 2011
9977 posts
Posted on 6/8/12 at 12:17 am to
quote:

Question: Tyrion is the youngest Tywin Lannister child so there should be no talk of the king's first right with the wife, right?





Yeah, the first night thing is just to show Aerys had a thing for her. People that believe that theory just think Aerys raped Joanna at some point when Tywin was in Kings Landing as his Hand of the King. Or she was willing I guess. Either way that she never told Tywin and she died giving birth.
Posted by John McClane
Member since Apr 2010
37180 posts
Posted on 6/8/12 at 12:42 am to
Ok. Thanks.
Posted by jmarto1
Houma, LA/ Las Vegas, NV
Member since Mar 2008
38717 posts
Posted on 6/8/12 at 7:20 am to
quote:

I wonder how Jon will take the news in the book, he might become pretty pissed at Ned for hiding his true heritage and want to become more of a Targ or maybe it won't phase him and his love for Ned/Starks/and the north. Should be interesting.



He's too noble to just shun the Ned. He'll be pissed at first and then someone will talk some sense into him and he'll understand. Seems to be the trend with him. I'm thinking he will see it as a chance to unify to families to defeat the Lannisters or whomever is the relevant enemy at the time.
Posted by F machine
Member since Jun 2009
11886 posts
Posted on 6/8/12 at 8:35 am to
quote:

There is no way I buy Tyrion being Aery's son.


Let's just say it is true. How old is Tyrion in relation to Jon Snow? Could he be Snow's father?
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