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Message
Video breaks down NBA GOAT status based on 5 criteria(Lebron exposed)
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:16 pm
video
Cliffs:
GOAT criteria
-accomplishments
-longevity
-winning
-stats
-eye test
Accomplishment
-Reg season MVP--->MJ=5, Lebron=4
-NBA Finals MVP --->MJ=6, Lebron=4
-Scoring titles------>MJ=10, Lebron=1
-All defensive team--->MJ=9, Lebron=6
-All-Star-------------->MJ=14, Lebron=17
MJ has more impressive accomplishments despite playing fewer seasons.
Edge MJ
Longevity
Lebron has played longer and has a longer peak(MJ=10yrs, Lebron=16yrs)
However, MJ has player all 82 regular season games 9x vs 1x for Lebron
Edge = Lebron
Winning
Everybody knows MJs and Lebrons finals record. Making to the finals isn't the same as winning it. 2x Lebrons team got swept, 2x Lebron's team lost 4-1. MJ's finals opponents avg season win total = 61.2, Lebron 60.8. Winning three in a row is hard... juggernaut Warriors can't even do it.
MJ had a run of winning 25/26 playoff series...not even Bill Russell can say that.
Edge = MJ
Stats
Overview comparison over 8 traditional stats(per game)
MJ has better points, steals, blocks, FT%, fewer turnovers
Lebron has better rebounds, assists, field goal %
Analytics
PER(player efficiency rating)
MJ led league 7x, Lebron 6x
MJ has highest PER ratings in the reg season and playoffs, Lebron 2nd and 3rd respectively.
Win Shares
MJ led league 8x, Lebron 5x
MJ has highest Win shares per 48 mins ratings in reg season and playoffs, Lebron 6th and 3rd respectively
Box plus minus
MJ led league 10x, LeBron 5x
MJ has the highest box plus minus ratings in the reg season and playoffs, Lebron 2nd and 2nd respectively
Value over Replacement per game ratings
MJ has the highest ratings for reg season and playoffs, Lebron 2nd and 2nd respectively
Of the 100 highest recorded game scores, MJ has 19 of them. Lebron 3.
Context stats. Comparison of stats vs similar position players since certain positions rack up stats better than others.
MJ's rank vs other shooting guards with 500+games
points 1st
rebounds 3rd
assists 4th
steals 3rd
blocks 3rd
fg% 9th
ft % 34th
Lebron's rank vs other small forward with 500+ games
points 2nd
rebounds 12th
assists 1st
steals 9th
blocks 17th
fg % 17th
ft % 107th
Edge = MJ
Eye test
MJ during his playing days was the best offensive player, best defensive player, best mid range game, best finisher, best post up game, most clutch, most fierce(according to opponents), hardert worker(by teammates), greatest winner. Jordan only weakness is shooting 3s which he's average(33%) but Lebron's is only slightly better at 34% which is still lower than his peers at 35%.
Lebron has 4 weaknesses:
1. FT shooting
2. Inconsistent defense(MJ more consistent - only guard to be top 5 in stl/game and blk/game)
3. Not a good shooter(has a slightly higher fg% than MJ but beyond 3ft, his fg% 37.5% reg season, 35.9% in playoffs, 31.7% late in close games). An aging MJ in his last year in Washington shot 42% beyond 3 ft.
4. Clutch - with 5 seconds and need a bucket to win or tie, Lebron is 19/94(20%), MJ is 50%
Edge = MJ
Cliffs:
GOAT criteria
-accomplishments
-longevity
-winning
-stats
-eye test
Accomplishment
-Reg season MVP--->MJ=5, Lebron=4
-NBA Finals MVP --->MJ=6, Lebron=4
-Scoring titles------>MJ=10, Lebron=1
-All defensive team--->MJ=9, Lebron=6
-All-Star-------------->MJ=14, Lebron=17
MJ has more impressive accomplishments despite playing fewer seasons.
Edge MJ
Longevity
Lebron has played longer and has a longer peak(MJ=10yrs, Lebron=16yrs)
However, MJ has player all 82 regular season games 9x vs 1x for Lebron
Edge = Lebron
Winning
Everybody knows MJs and Lebrons finals record. Making to the finals isn't the same as winning it. 2x Lebrons team got swept, 2x Lebron's team lost 4-1. MJ's finals opponents avg season win total = 61.2, Lebron 60.8. Winning three in a row is hard... juggernaut Warriors can't even do it.
MJ had a run of winning 25/26 playoff series...not even Bill Russell can say that.
Edge = MJ
Stats
Overview comparison over 8 traditional stats(per game)
MJ has better points, steals, blocks, FT%, fewer turnovers
Lebron has better rebounds, assists, field goal %
Analytics
PER(player efficiency rating)
MJ led league 7x, Lebron 6x
MJ has highest PER ratings in the reg season and playoffs, Lebron 2nd and 3rd respectively.
Win Shares
MJ led league 8x, Lebron 5x
MJ has highest Win shares per 48 mins ratings in reg season and playoffs, Lebron 6th and 3rd respectively
Box plus minus
MJ led league 10x, LeBron 5x
MJ has the highest box plus minus ratings in the reg season and playoffs, Lebron 2nd and 2nd respectively
Value over Replacement per game ratings
MJ has the highest ratings for reg season and playoffs, Lebron 2nd and 2nd respectively
Of the 100 highest recorded game scores, MJ has 19 of them. Lebron 3.
Context stats. Comparison of stats vs similar position players since certain positions rack up stats better than others.
MJ's rank vs other shooting guards with 500+games
points 1st
rebounds 3rd
assists 4th
steals 3rd
blocks 3rd
fg% 9th
ft % 34th
Lebron's rank vs other small forward with 500+ games
points 2nd
rebounds 12th
assists 1st
steals 9th
blocks 17th
fg % 17th
ft % 107th
Edge = MJ
Eye test
MJ during his playing days was the best offensive player, best defensive player, best mid range game, best finisher, best post up game, most clutch, most fierce(according to opponents), hardert worker(by teammates), greatest winner. Jordan only weakness is shooting 3s which he's average(33%) but Lebron's is only slightly better at 34% which is still lower than his peers at 35%.
Lebron has 4 weaknesses:
1. FT shooting
2. Inconsistent defense(MJ more consistent - only guard to be top 5 in stl/game and blk/game)
3. Not a good shooter(has a slightly higher fg% than MJ but beyond 3ft, his fg% 37.5% reg season, 35.9% in playoffs, 31.7% late in close games). An aging MJ in his last year in Washington shot 42% beyond 3 ft.
4. Clutch - with 5 seconds and need a bucket to win or tie, Lebron is 19/94(20%), MJ is 50%
Edge = MJ
This post was edited on 10/25/21 at 8:17 pm
9
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:32 pm to PeteRose
quote:
Eye test
MJ during his playing days was the best offensive player, best defensive player, best mid range game, best finisher, best post up game, most clutch, most fierce(according to opponents), hardert worker(by teammates), greatest winner. Jordan only weakness is shooting 3s which he's average(33%) but Lebron's is only slightly better at 34% which is still lower than his peers at 35%.
Lebron has 4 weaknesses:
1. FT shooting
2. Inconsistent defense(MJ more consistent - only guard to be top 5 in stl/game and blk/game)
3. Not a good shooter(has a slightly higher fg% than MJ but beyond 3ft, his fg% 37.5% reg season, 35.9% in playoffs, 31.7% late in close games). An aging MJ in his last year in Washington shot 42% beyond 3 ft.
4. Clutch - with 5 seconds and need a bucket to win or tie, Lebron is 19/94(20%), MJ is 50%
Edge = MJ
Next to the titles (which should matter because individual players in basketball make the biggest difference of all major team sports), this should end the debate. MJ's on Mount Rushmore of ALL sports FOREVER. We will NEVER see another player dominate a sport at so many levels like MJ with the Bulls, he was basically a perfect basketball player.
This post was edited on 10/25/21 at 8:34 pm
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:33 pm to ThePTExperience1969
quote:
4. Clutch - with 5 seconds and need a bucket to win or tie, Lebron is 19/94(20%), MJ is 50%
Yikes
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:34 pm to PeteRose
Missed the likeability quotient:
Do I even have to say it?
Do I even have to say it?
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:51 pm to PeteRose
Everyone knows Jordan is the goat. People just want something to talk about.
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:53 pm to Griff Tannen
Great first post
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:54 pm to hg
quote:
4. Clutch - with 5 seconds and need a bucket to win or tie, Lebron is 19/94(20%), MJ is 50%
Ouch
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:54 pm to PeteRose
That’s a lot of numbers and words to explain something that’s blatantly obvious to anyone who saw both play
Posted on 10/25/21 at 8:55 pm to ThePTExperience1969
This is where I parked my car.
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:00 pm to PeteRose
quote:
Longevity
Lebron has played longer and has a longer peak(MJ=10yrs, Lebron=16yrs)
However, MJ has player all 82 regular season games 9x vs 1x for Lebron
Edge = Lebron
Ehh, it’s not like Jordan was sitting around in his off years. He was playing baseball. Also the fact that Lebron can’t play a whole season is kinda leaning me towards Jordan.
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:04 pm to PeteRose
Is this a Thesis or something? Labron came out of H.S. M.J. played 2 or 3 years of college, can't remember. So put that in your Game of Fricking Thrones!
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:10 pm to ThePTExperience1969
quote:
We will NEVER see another player dominate a sport at so many levels like MJ with the Bulls
MJ and Gretzky are automatic 1,2 on the pro athlete Mt. Rushmore. Anyone debating this is a contrarian retard.
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:16 pm to VernonPLSUfan
quote:
Labron came out of H.S. M.J. played 2 or 3 years of college
I actually think that works more in MJ's favor, MJ learned work ethic and starting from the bottom and becoming self-made. As big a choker as Dean Smith was, he was without a doubt a great teacher of the game and playing the game in a team-oriented way, all that explains why MJ was a great defender and facilitator if he had to be, he has great assist numbers for a primarily scorer. He was basically a finished product when he reached the pros and no doubt playing under Coach Knight in the Olympics helped him as well.
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:22 pm to ThePTExperience1969
There still talking to this billar! Damn, wrong thread.
This post was edited on 10/25/21 at 9:24 pm
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:29 pm to PeteRose
That’s a lot to write when everyone already knows Jordan was way better than Lebron.
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:32 pm to hg
Yeah. Those are made up numbers 
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:36 pm to PeteRose
quote:I’m not sure the Jordan data are correct. Specifically, play-by-play data in Basketball Reference goes date back to the 1996-1997 season, so his last 2 seasons with the Bulls and his 2 seasons with the Wizards.
Clutch - with 5 seconds and need a bucket to win or tie, Lebron is 19/94(20%), MJ is 50%
According to those data, he was 7/18 (38.9%) on those shots in the regular season, 2/4 (50%) in the postseason, and 9/22 overall (40.9%).
This post was edited on 10/25/21 at 9:37 pm
Posted on 10/25/21 at 9:55 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
According to those data, he was 7/18 (38.9%) on those shots in the regular season, 2/4 (50%) in the postseason, and 9/22 overall (40.9%).
Still double what LeBrun did
Posted on 10/25/21 at 10:07 pm to ThePTExperience1969
quote:Maybe, but I’m guessing like most players, the percentages were a lot worse early in their careers (so MJ’s probably improved, not only because he improved as a player, but more importantly, as a decision maker). In addition, the final 5 seconds is a really poor time frame to use, and I’ve never seen any measure of clutch use the final 5 seconds. They usually use the final couple of minutes, or at least final 24 seconds (i.e., shot clock length) because you get a lot of poor, low probability shots in the final 5 seconds (heaves, slap putbacks, inbounding with so little time you don’t even get a traditional shot off, etc.). Plus if a team is down, then they’re likely to shoot with more than 5 seconds, to get an opportunity to rebound and/or foul and get another possession. Or if a team gets the ball with 30 seconds left, a shot has to come before 5 seconds or it will be a shot clock violation. In other words, a made 3 pointer with 6-10 seconds left to tie it up, is just as clutch as one with 0-5 seconds left.
Still double what LeBrun did
In addition, it restricts the sample size to an almost useless amount (i.e., Lebron has < 100 shots and Kobe has 120 shots, despite both taking over 30,000 shots in their career).
So if you say last minute of 4th or OT instead, to tie or win, Lebron is 98/255 (38.4%). For comparison, because we don’t have most of MJ’s career play-by-play shots available, Kobe was 101/306 (33.0%). Now I’m sure MJ’s percentage was higher than Kobe’s and probably higher than Lebron’s, but I doubt it was much higher, especially if you use EFG% instead since MJ shot very few 3s in comparison (Lebron’s EFG was 43.3% and Kobe’s was 37.8%). Even better, since they may have been fouled, what their TS% including FTs should be included.
This post was edited on 10/25/21 at 10:14 pm
Posted on 10/25/21 at 10:30 pm to PeteRose
quote:
Lebron exposed
So he’s the 2nd best to ever play. Damn. So exposed.
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