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re: Phil Jackson: "LeBron needs to takeover like Michael did"
Posted on 6/7/16 at 3:47 pm to genro
Posted on 6/7/16 at 3:47 pm to genro
quote:Well I know you're being facetious, but I've seen you misrepresent this a bit in this thread. First of all, team chemistry can be measured if one wanted to. Industrial/Organizational Psychologists often do this. However, these are often just one component of what is truly important: general outcomes. So in a sports like basketball, we don't have to isolate this variable, we see it in the performance of the team and specific lineups.
My wife and I have more chemistry and I can prove ot since all these emotional aspects can be fully quantified thanks to sports psychologists
And your insistence on this idea that because something is not directly observable, that it can't be measured. That's false as well. We can't directly measure a lot things like emotions, personality, feelings, etc. These are all latent constructs, that have to be measured with multiple observable or direct variables then identify the extent to which each contributes to the latent construct. It's done all the time and is used in just about every single psychological and behavioral test.
It's just probably unnecessary in basketball because the performance is so much more important as a whole.
1
Posted on 6/7/16 at 3:48 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:No it can't, not thoroughly
First of all, team chemistry can be measured if one wanted to.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 3:50 pm to genro
quote:Yes it can.
No it can't, not thoroughly
Besides it can be measured thoroughly enough that whatever can't be measured is probably irrelevant.
It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of its value. A team could employ a team of psychologists and economists to throughly measure "chemistry," but that added information probably has limited value when a team is already in place.
You can keep arguing that these more abstract variables are immeasurable but it's an invalid argument. It's just the value of the variables in isolation aren't much more important than what is already quantified.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 3:54 pm
Posted on 6/7/16 at 3:55 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:No it can't
Yes it can.
quote:What can't be measured is simply impossible to measure, including how much can't be measured. Nothing more and not worth attempting to quantify
Besides it can be measured thoroughly enough that whatever can't be measured is probably irrelevant.
quote:Roster moves can still be made. Its value is limited because the scope of what can be measured quantitatively regardless of how many experts you employ is insufficient.
A team could employ a team of psychologists and economists to throughly measure "chemistry," but that added information probably has limited value when a team is already in place.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 3:56 pm
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:01 pm to genro
quote:Except it can't be measured. There are entire fields dedicated to it.
What can't be measured is simply impossible to measure, including how much can't be measured. Nothing more and not worth attempting to quantify
Med School requires intelligence, motivation, and work ethic. They don't give IQ tests or other psychological assessments on isolation because they already capture enough of those variables with the pre-requisites and MCAT. They could measure and quantify them if they wanted to, but the added value would not be worthwhile.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:05 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:And yet a fairly significant number of people don't graduate medical school because they are lacking in these areas
Med School requires intelligence, motivation, and work ethic. They don't give IQ tests or other psychological assessments on isolation because they already capture enough of those variables with the pre-requisites and MCAT.
quote:Wouldn't they want to prevent dropouts?
They could measure and quantify them if they wanted to, but the added value would not be worthwhile.
And even if they did give a litany of intelligence and personality examinations it still wouldn't be sufficient to prevent it because not everything can be quantified. THAT's why it's not worthwhile
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 4:06 pm
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:13 pm to RonBurgundy
First and foremost, I think the Cavs are a flawed roster on skill-set alone. The fact that you have to roll-out two negative defenders (Kyrie and Love) is not that great. And who on the 2nd unit is able to create for himself ...and others off the bench. Not JR and not Delly.
It's a chicken and the egg thing, I think Love isn't a great fit stylistically or thematically. They begrudgingly like Delly because at least he scraps hard to the point of being dirty. K-Love never really wanted to sacrifice as much as Bosh did in MIA. To paraphrase what Netw3rk said "Watching K-Love dive for loose balls is like watching a kid do chores without prompt after being chided early in the week for being lazy by his dad"
It's a chicken and the egg thing, I think Love isn't a great fit stylistically or thematically. They begrudgingly like Delly because at least he scraps hard to the point of being dirty. K-Love never really wanted to sacrifice as much as Bosh did in MIA. To paraphrase what Netw3rk said "Watching K-Love dive for loose balls is like watching a kid do chores without prompt after being chided early in the week for being lazy by his dad"
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:23 pm to genro
quote:LINK > 94% graduate within 5 years.
And yet a fairly significant number of people don't graduate medical school because they are lacking in these areas
quote:There is error in everything. It just tends to be highly individualistic. A person may realize that med school isn't what they really wanted, or some health (mental or physical) issues arise or they barely made the cut-off (or lowered it for certain groups).
And even if they did give a litany of intelligence and personality examinations it still wouldn't be sufficient to prevent it because not everything can be quantified. THAT's why it's not worthwhile
That doesn't discount that they are very good at measuring what is necessary.
Just like team chemistry. If a team plays well together: it may be chemistry, coaching, talent level, etc. and/or some combination of the variables. They don't need to isolate each one because the outcome is most important. But if they really wanted to, they could measure chemistry, but besides specific lineups, they probably don't need to go beyond that. It doesn't make it immeasurable though.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:25 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:6% is significant
94% graduate within 5 years.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:33 pm to genro
I'm pleasently surprised this thread has rebounded from the football nonsense
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:35 pm to genro
quote:But it's probably the students who had poorer scores and/or the groups that have lowered cutoffs (that's more a political issue though).
6% is significant
And when you consider things like health problems, career changes, etc., 94% is an excellent prediction.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 4:37 pm
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:39 pm to Goldrush25
Oh wow
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:40 pm to buckeye_vol
6% is significant, if you were claiming a metric showed a 100% correlation to success. I don't think that's what anybody was claiming though. Without seeing the study and its setup, we could estimate that with alpha=.05 that this metric has a 85% success rate, probably so. and if a metric is 85% accurate in predicting social sciences outcomes with many latent variables attached, you'd have a pretty good shot at getting published.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:42 pm to Jelly
I was waiting for the professional to chime in
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:44 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
MJ is MJ because he was the best that played and he simply won when it mattered, which you can't say for lebron
Let me preface this by saying that I think Lebron is maaybe a top 5 player ever. Definitely not in the conversation for top 3. But your statement above just oversimplifies things for MJ. MJ won all six of his championships with another all time great in Pippen, the winningest coach in NBA history, and a great PF (Horace Grant and Rodman). Saying that 'MJ' won those championships himself is the bullshite fairy tale that we've been told. His accomplishments are shared with the other members of his team, just like the other all time greats.
What really happened is that MJ headlined some of the all-time great teams of all time, and probably has the 'most exciting player of all time' locked up. Sure he is an all time great. Sure he is in the top 5, top 3 of all time. But he is not head and shoulders above Bill Russell, Kareem, Magic and Wilt Chamberlain like he is popularly thought of. Those legendary Bulls teams of the 90's were built on the backs of more than just one player.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:47 pm to Jelly
quote:It's not really a classic study per se, it's just med school outcomes. As it pertains to the predictive variables (mcat, GPA, etc.), I bet that the failure rate is much higher closer to the cut-off.
6% is significant, if you were claiming a metric showed a 100% correlation to success. I don't think that's what anybody was claiming though. Without seeing the study and its setup, we could estimate that with alpha=.05 that this metric has a 85% success rate, probably so. and if a metric is 85% accurate in predicting social sciences outcomes with many latent variables attached, you'd have a pretty good shot at getting published.
Regardless, my point was that, even though med school applications are rigorous, they didn't need to study every variable in isolation to accurately predict students who will be successful. But those variables are still possible to measure.
Just like they could bring in IO psychologists to study team dynamics, specifically chemistry. They don't need to because the outcomes provide valuable information without isolating everything, BUT they could be isolated if necessary.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 4:50 pm
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:48 pm to buckeye_vol
I was defending you playboy. 
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:52 pm to Jelly
quote:I know. I just wanted to reiterate my points so that maybe the "immeasurable" and "unquantifable" crowd will eventually understand that unnecessary to quantify =/= unable to quantify.
I was defending you playboy.
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:56 pm to buckeye_vol
You haven't shown that. Just because certain tests can be accurate predictors of success says absolutely nothing about whether personality and chemistry can be quantified. You're conflating two entirely different things.
Essentially, unnecessary also =/= able to
Essentially, unnecessary also =/= able to
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 4:58 pm
Posted on 6/7/16 at 4:58 pm to genro
quote:Well I'll have to tell the researchers and companies that have spent decades creating personality tests and studying team dynamics that some uninformed person says that they can't be measured.
You haven't shown that. Just because certain tests can be accurate predictors of success says absolutely nothing about whether personality and chemistry can be quantified. You're conflating two entirely different things.
Google should be delighted to know they are currently wasting millions studying the team dynamics and that their recent results are invalid.
This post was edited on 6/7/16 at 5:01 pm
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