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re: PGA Tour disciplines golfers 'who have decided to turn their backs' on PGA for LIV

Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:23 pm to
Posted by lsufball19
Franklin, TN
Member since Sep 2008
71358 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:23 pm to
quote:

The law is very clear (for tax and insurance purposes) that an independent contractor cannot be prohibited from working for others, elsewise, that person is actually an employee, not an independent contractor. Severe tax implications coming up.



LINK

quote:


Still, do event denials and suspensions and bans violate antitrust laws?

Heitner asserts the tour is operating within the law. “I do not believe [the tour is violating antitrust laws], since the player has other options to compete, which is the basis for the ban itself,” Heitner explains. “The PGA Tour is a non-profit organization that has the right to exclude individuals from its ranks as long as it abides by its own policies, provides no preferential treatment, and does not act in a discriminatory manner.”

However it may not be that definitive, says Allen. Unlike Major League Baseball, which infamously received an exemption from the Sherman Act (which prescribes the rule of free competition among those engaged in commerce in the United States), the PGA Tour has to abide by the law and any argument against a ban would use antitrust as the heart of its counter.

“To make such a case, that would require a player to show, No. 1, that the tour has monopoly power in a market and, No. 2, that the PGA Tour is trying to maintain that power through means other than having a superior product or business savvy,” Allen says.

Allen notes this is not new ground for the PGA Tour. In 2015, a class-action lawsuit was brought by caddies against the tour using antitrust and intellectual property claims, an effort that proved unsuccessful. “Prevailing in an antitrust lawsuit is much more complicated because the plaintiff would have to establish many things, but most importantly, a threshold requirement: defining the market,” Allen says. “That’s where the caddies lost.”

Allen also mentions the tour could face heat not just from players but the Federal Trade Commission on antitrust claims. In fact, the FTC concluded after a four-year investigation in the early 1990s that the tour had violated antitrust laws—partially due to the aforementioned rule stipulating permission for a conflicting-event release—and recommended federal action. But no action was ultimately taken, a circumstance credited to the work of then-tour Commissioner Tim Finchem (a lawyer himself who worked in President Jimmy Carter’s administration) and the tour’s lobbying mastery. Coincidentally, this clashed with Greg Norman’s first try to challenge the PGA Tour through his attempt to launch the World Tour.

Back to the present. There is another point to a theoretical antitrust claim that is unique to the tour. That would be the tour’s status as a charity—a status that has garnered plenty of scrutiny in itself. That circumstance, though, does not necessarily apply in this case. All entities, be it for profit or not, are subject to the Sherman Act, but the PGA Tour is a 501(c)(6) non-profit, which is different from the more commonly known 501(c)(3) entity. Organizations that are 501(c)(6) are typically entities such as business associations, chambers of commerce and sports leagues. Basically, as long as the entity’s actions are taken to benefit the association or its line of business, the entity is operating within the IRS Regulations. And as an extension, any rumblings that this could jeopardize the tour’s tax-exempt status are misguided.

“To lose that status, the PGA Tour would have to do something to benefit one individual as opposed to its line of business, and I do not believe a ban of a player or players falls into this category,” Allen says.


Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
108766 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:24 pm to
I don’t give a frick about the pga tour or LIV as entities. I just don’t want something that disrupts golf. It has been absolutely perfect from a fans perspective. A shite ton of tournaments to watch where the best players are together

If LIV crushes the PGA and becomes like it was before, I would be happy as a clam. My worry is LIV winning would mean far less golf
Posted by RedHawk
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2007
9544 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:25 pm to
quote:

Mostly because I don't make up my mind watching CNN/FoxNews/Golf Channel.


I appreciate that, but to say that Greg Norman has somehow outmaneuvered the PGA Tour without all of the money he has at his disposal is wrong and means you really don't have a grasp on what is going on in this situation at all.
Posted by lsufball19
Franklin, TN
Member since Sep 2008
71358 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:26 pm to
quote:

Greg Norman is doing it the right way. It's not just money.


Norman's entire career has been all about the money. You can't be serious with this
Posted by ShaneTheLegLechler
Member since Dec 2011
63050 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:27 pm to
Yep. Aside from some relatively minor gripes about broadcast and coverage stuff I think pro golf is currently an excellent product. I don’t see at all how this is going to make it better for me, the fan
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
108766 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:27 pm to
Let’s just show what happens if LIV wins, what the main worry is for people agaisnt it that don’t bullshite about the Saudi angle

Guys like JT, Rory, Burns, even tiger play a shite ton of golf to start their careers because they want to get their money and points up.

I mean frick, JT still played 23 tournaments last year

If LIV wins, and a guy like zalatoris gets 125 million early on, every player is going to play a veteran like shortened schedule

Is that what fans want? I don’t

This post was edited on 6/9/22 at 2:28 pm
Posted by ReauxlTide222
St. Petersburg
Member since Nov 2010
89066 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:28 pm to
quote:

I don’t give a frick about the pga tour or LIV as entities. I just don’t want something that disrupts golf. It has been absolutely perfect from a fans perspective. A shite ton of tournaments to watch where the best players are together

If LIV crushes the PGA and becomes like it was before, I would be happy as a clam. My worry is LIV winning would mean far less golf
Posted by lsufball19
Franklin, TN
Member since Sep 2008
71358 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:31 pm to
quote:

If LIV wins, and a guy like zalatoris gets 125 million early on, every player is going to play a veteran like shortened schedule

If LIV wins that also means a global tour schedule. Gonna really put a dent in viewership in the North America. We really only have to deal with that once or twice a year with the Open and the Ryder/Presidents Cup right now. If LIV wins, you'd have to think a big chunk of their events will be overseas and crush their viewership with casual viewers. I think that ultimately really damages the growth of golf in this country after all the progress they've made the past 20-25 years
Posted by bamameister
Right here, right now
Member since May 2016
17202 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:34 pm to
quote:

I appreciate that, but to say that Greg Norman has somehow outmaneuvered the PGA Tour without all of the money he has at his disposal is wrong and means you really don't have a grasp on what is going on in this situation at all.



To suggest that the old AFL outmaneuvered the NFL without money, and plenty of it is just as ridiculous. Greg Norman has been well organized, determined as well as financially funded. That's what's frightening the crap out of the PGA.
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
108766 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:36 pm to
There was a shite ton of smoke that Norman was about to be canned, and maybe even beheaded













I made the second part up but the potential the firing reports is true









But seriously the may behead him
Posted by theone
LSU
Member since Nov 2005
2098 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:40 pm to
8 LIV tournaments and 4 Majors giving you 12 weekends of top flight golf isn’t a problem.

My guess if LIV wins is that they will start scheduling more tournaments.

Or you still get some guys to in top tier tour events like the Players.
Posted by bamameister
Right here, right now
Member since May 2016
17202 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:40 pm to
quote:

There was a shite ton of smoke that Norman was about to be canned, and maybe even beheaded


So quit watching the golf channel. See if you can do 5 seconds of research before you have your first emotional predisposition toward bias and shut it all down.
Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112644 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

There is a player in the field who has never broken par in one single round in a pro event

You award points to LIV, and he automatically gets a decent world ranking shooting 80 every week because he is guaranteed a finish
Feels like a flaw in the OWGR then, no?

If you're playing in a really weak field, shoot a bad score, and finish at or near last, seems you should gain points that reflect that.
Posted by ReauxlTide222
St. Petersburg
Member since Nov 2010
89066 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:50 pm to
Right now I get to go see these guys at Innisbrook, Bay Hill, PGA National, TPC Sawgrass, and then typically a random trip wherever they might be around the country every now and then.

If the PGA Tour is wrecked I doubt I get half of that.
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
108766 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:52 pm to
quote:

If you're playing in a really weak field, shoot a bad score, and finish at or near last, seems you should gain points that reflect that
Well you would be cut

LIV doesn’t have a cut…..
Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112644 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:54 pm to
quote:

This tournament is handing out points this week. Do you know a single player? probably not

Why is a cut relevant if not everyone who won the cut was given points?

Unless I'm misreading it, i'm seeing 54 hole event where players who made the cut got 0 points.

So why couldn't OWGR calculate a baseline of how good this tour is, and just because you guarantee finish shouldn't matter because it doesn't guarantee you any points, just like that random tourney that dude linked that you responded to?
Posted by shel311
McKinney, Texas
Member since Aug 2004
112644 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:57 pm to
quote:

What you linked is not a PGA Tour event. And what you linked only awarded points to the top 3 finishers and only 6 total points split up between them. For comparison, the player who finished DFL in the Memorial received about the same number of points as the runner-up finisher in that event. The strength of field in the memorial was 587 and that event a 0.

What's the SOF for Liv?
Posted by RedHawk
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2007
9544 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:58 pm to
quote:

To suggest that the old AFL outmaneuvered the NFL without money, and plenty of it is just as ridiculous. Greg Norman has been well organized, determined as well as financially funded. That's what's frightening the crap out of the PGA.


Of Course the AFL had money, but they didn't have the kind of money where they were prepared to light it on fire and never turn a profit.

The only reason that LIV has gotten the field they have so far is because of the crazy money they have given the players.
This post was edited on 6/9/22 at 3:05 pm
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
108766 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:58 pm to
Oh I see your point. They could

But then it becomes a mess. Let’s say the top 48 players in the world joined LIV. How do you do the points? Obviously the field is fricking stacked, so coming out dead fricking last isn’t bad

But if you say everyone gets awarded points, then you have an entire “tour” setup where people just keep getting points for showing up, and what happens then for everyone else?

It’s just a mess to do an entire tour with no cuts.
Posted by themunch
bottom of the list
Member since Jan 2007
71367 posts
Posted on 6/9/22 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

LIV doesn’t have a cut…..



Equity eh
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