re: PER and Kobe Bryant

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Bynum - 22.6
Ariza - 17.0

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Bynum & Ariza were injured.

At least be intellectually honest & post Luke Walton's(Ariza replacements) & Vlad Rad's per.

Gasol > everyone during Lebron's cleveland tenure

Kobe is done, been above average but nothing great. Now just average. Should just retire, but unknownknight can keep sucking his dick and try to make him something he isn't. Lebron,Jordan are miles ahead of Kobe. You might find a place for him outside the top 10 though...

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He's a bit overrated. There's nothing wrong with that. But I don't think that championships should be the only thing we look at when determining individual greatness. Kobe was a great player. But in my opinion he is not on the elite list of all-time greats.

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In most people's mind he's the second greatest SG in NBA history aside from MJ. Surely that alone secures his place "on the elite list of all-time greats" as you say.

What's overrated about being the focal point of 2 NBA titles?

Even Kobe's first 3 titles with Shaq he was considerably more valuable than say a Pippen to Jordan or Wade to LeBron.

After the 99-00 title one could argue it was more of a 1A/1B with Shaq & Kobe.

Kobe -
"99-00" 22/5/6, "00-01" 28/5/6, "01-02" 25/5/5

Shaq -
"99-00" 29/13/3, "00-01" 28/12/3, "01-02" 27/10/3

Let's not forget the man is fourth on the NBA all time scoring list.

The only three players ahead of Kobe are MJ/Malone who each played 19yrs, & Kareem who played for 20yrs.

Judging a player based solely on PER is a short sided approach that doesn't give an accurate portrayal of a players greatness throughout his career imo.

Kobe lost to a very good good Pistons team when he had The Glove, Shaq, and Malone. LBJ beat a not as good but still really good Pistons team with the likes of Big Z. Case closed.

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That Cav's team had two players outside of Lebron that had higher PERs than Odom and that's NOT even including Hughes.



06-07 Cavs (the year the Cavs lost in the finals to the Spurs)

Lebron - 24.5
Ilgaus - 18.0
Gooden - 16.5
Marshall - 15.3

07-08 Lakers (the year the Lakers lost in the finals to the Celtics)

Kobe - 24.2
Gasol - 24.0
Odom - 16.9
Karl - 15.8
Farmar - 15.4
Vurajic - 15.1
Turiaf - 15.0

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Awesome

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Not trying to turn this into a LeBron thread, but you also have to consider where those shots are taken. Any guard or forward shooting 57% is fricking ridiculous. Not taking anything away from LeBron. BUT when you look where he makes his shots, you notice that more than half have came at the rim. He's about average from everywhere else on the court. See below from basketball reference:

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You're not at all taking anything away from him, it's quite the opposite. That's pointing out the positive, that he's good enough to put himself in advantageous positions to be extremely efficient.

Not sure why people, not you, speak of that as if it's a negative thing. There's a ton of things on the MSB that boggle my mind, but that thought process is on my Mt Rushmore of MSB-isms that make me shake my head.

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Posted by molsusports
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That Cav's team had two players outside of Lebron that had higher PERs than Odom and that's NOT even including Hughes.



06-07 Cavs (the year the Cavs lost in the finals to the Spurs)

Lebron - 24.5
Ilgaus - 18.0
Gooden - 16.5
Marshall - 15.3

07-08 Lakers (the year the Lakers lost in the finals to the Celtics)

Kobe - 24.2
Gasol - 24.0
Bynum - 22.6
Ariza - 17.0
Odom - 16.9
Karl - 15.8
Farmar - 15.4
Vurajic - 15.1
Turiaf - 15.0

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What does the 2008 Laker team have to do with the 2007 Laker team? To the 2007 Cavs team?

You are comparing the 2007 Cavs to the 2008 Lakers that lost to the first constructed superteam (Celtics big three year 1)? Which they beat later obviously.

That's funny! Wanna know why? Because the 2008 Cavs didn't even make the finals. Derp.



So are you admitting Kobe was a better leader than Lebron in 2008? Ok. I agree.

So....back to 2007. The Cav's team was better overall than the Lakers (outside of Kobe and Lebron - KB >> LBJ)

Shooting location obviously matters. the ability to penetrate and score inside from the guard position was what made Jordan's field goal percentage so impressively high for a guard (esp when he was younger and could penetrate and before his outside shooting developed)

But the ability to get down low and score is a skill. And the wisdom not to take low percentage shots from outside is also relevant to how valuable you are as a player. When you realize Lebron's 2 point fg% is .642 (at least it was the other day) you really have to step back and wonder how the hell he's getting numbers like that. Normally those are conversion percentages reserved for players like Shaq in his prime.

FWIW no reasonable person argues Kobe is not great. He's obviously a hall of fame player even if he isn't among the greatest of the great. And he's one of the most entertaining players to play in recent history. A dominant big man (esp a 350 pound center) is just less entertaining to watch dominate than a HOF shooting guard or small forward - esp one with the world class athleticism of a Kobe Bryant.

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But the ability to get down low and score is a skill. And the wisdom not to take low percentage shots from outside is also relevant to how valuable you are as a player. When you realize Lebron's 2 point fg% is .642 (at least it was the other day) you really have to step back and wonder how the hell he's getting numbers like that. Normally those are conversion percentages reserved for players like Shaq in his prime.

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Definitely agree, just felt like pointing out how much of his scoring comes at the rim and that he's pretty much unstoppable when he does so with 81%