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Message
re: MLB Offseason Thread: Hosmer to the Padres, Twins get a starter
Posted on 1/14/18 at 8:41 am to tduecen
Posted on 1/14/18 at 8:41 am to tduecen
Great trade for the Astros.
But this is just another example how pathetic this league has become. The pirates should NOT be trading away guys like Cole.
The Patriots will most likely winning their third SB in four years but even in its worse day the NFL is FAR superior to MLB.
But this is just another example how pathetic this league has become. The pirates should NOT be trading away guys like Cole.
The Patriots will most likely winning their third SB in four years but even in its worse day the NFL is FAR superior to MLB.
2
Posted on 1/14/18 at 8:51 am to BigD43
quote:Curious what this has to do with anything?
The Patriots will most likely winning their third SB in four years but even in its worse day the NFL is FAR superior to MLB.
quote:Why? The way to build a team is the Astro/Cub way now.... tear it down and suck for a few years, get some highly rated prospects. Trading Cole wasn't the issue, the fact they seem to have not gotten proper value is shocking.
The pirates should NOT be trading away guys like Cole.
Of course all the players they got are under 25 so they have a good shot of one becoming a solid player.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:07 am to tduecen
quote:
Curious what this has to do with anything?
To show the contrast of credibility amongst the two leagues.
quote:
Why? The way to build a team is the Astro/Cub way now.... tear it down and suck for a few years, get some highly rated prospects. Trading Cole wasn't the issue, the fact they seem to have not gotten proper value is shocking.
Trading Cole WAS the issue. He is NOT one of the guys a team should trade if they're trying to rebuild.
He has years to go till he turns 30, a fastball that reaches 100 mph, and lead the team in wins.
Plus, he had a down year and nobody better to replace him with. Why trade him now when we're not going to get as much for him?
Of course we all know the answer. Save millions.
quote:
Of course all the players they got are under 25 so they have a good shot of one becoming a solid player.
Exactly. In all likelihood ONE of them has a good shot of becoming a solid player. Why trade a solid player for a bunch of guys just in hopes of one of them becoming a solid replacement?
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:13 am to BigD43
Yeah, the NFL is a great league to model after, when it comes to on field product. It's a league that needs gambling to even push it's product. If not for Office pools, fantasy football, and Gambling, NFL would have games on the WE network.
Mediocrity in the highest order. Mediocrity so bad, that people are tuning out.
Let's also add, you have only 14 teams who even sell out, sell out 8 fricking games. not 41, 81. 8 fricking games. And let's add that they also use tickets sold, so attendance is even worse. House of Cards the NFL is.
Mediocrity in the highest order. Mediocrity so bad, that people are tuning out.
Let's also add, you have only 14 teams who even sell out, sell out 8 fricking games. not 41, 81. 8 fricking games. And let's add that they also use tickets sold, so attendance is even worse. House of Cards the NFL is.
This post was edited on 1/14/18 at 9:19 am
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:18 am to BigD43
quote:NFL is more popular, well no shite.... Who didn't know that. Again not relevant really... MLB has plenty of credibility, look around the league as the Twins are meeting FA pitchers trying to add to the staff, the Angels, etc....
To show the contrast of credibility amongst the two leagues.
quote:Why? He is 27 years old and will be looking for a big contract soon. He will not be a FA until he is 29 so now is his peak value.
Trading Cole WAS the issue. He is NOT one of the guys a team should trade if they're trying to rebuild.
quote:
He has years to go till he turns 30, a fastball that reaches 100 mph, and lead the team in wins.
He has 3 years till 30, a lot of pitchers throw 100, and wins is overrated
quote:
Plus, he had a down year and nobody better to replace him with.
quote:Well they may value the prospects they got from the Astros higher than other teams or fans, so they may feel they got perfect value. Obviously they were asking from more from other teams so it seems they settled.
Why trade him now when we're not going to get as much for him?
quote:Nah this isn't 100% about saving money, if they wanted to save money they had other players they could trade for pennies on the dollar. Cole was only to set to make what, 6.5 million so he wasn't breaking the bank.
Of course we all know the answer. Save millions.
quote:Because this is baseball and that is the way it has been done for years? Those players you also have a chance one becomes a superstar as well. All 3 could be a bust, the Pirates could feel that Cole won't correct his problems and what you saw last year is what you will get in the future. Therefore, instead of an ace you are looking at a #3/4 instead. If the Pirates traded Nova for this deal we would be saying great trade for the Pirates.
Exactly. In all likelihood ONE of them has a good shot of becoming a solid player. Why trade a solid player for a bunch of guys just in hopes of one of them becoming a solid replacement?
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:20 am to SeeeeK
Fair points but in this regard the NFL is far superior.
I dont see teams trading away their vital members of their team in exchange for draft picks JUST TO SAVE MONEY.
We have seen these trades over and over again in Pittsburgh. Some work out. The vast majority do not.
I dont see teams trading away their vital members of their team in exchange for draft picks JUST TO SAVE MONEY.
We have seen these trades over and over again in Pittsburgh. Some work out. The vast majority do not.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:24 am to BigD43
quote:You mean they just cut vital members to save money
I dont see teams trading away their vital members of their team in exchange for draft picks JUST TO SAVE MONEY.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:34 am to tduecen
quote:
NFL is more popular, well no shite.... Who didn't know that. Again not relevant really... MLB has plenty of credibility, look around the league as the Twins are meeting FA pitchers trying to add to the staff, the Angels, etc....
That wasn't my point. You see these types of trades far more in MLB.
quote:
Why? He is 27 years old and will be looking for a big contract soon. He will not be a FA until he is 29 so now is his peak value.
So you admit that his salary would become an issue??? THAT is my point.
Plus this is the first time is ERA has been above 4.
quote:
He has 3 years till 30, a lot of pitchers throw 100, and wins is overrated
He is still the best SP the buccos got.
quote:
Well they may value the prospects they got from the Astros higher than other teams or fans, so they may feel they got perfect value. Obviously they were asking from more from other teams so it seems they settled.
Again, this is a VERY old story in Pittsburgh. we have seen these trades time and time again. The majority of the time, they do not work out.
quote:
Nah this isn't 100% about saving money, if they wanted to save money they had other players they could trade for pennies on the dollar. Cole was only to set to make what, 6.5 million so he wasn't breaking the bank.
But as you said, he would eventually be due for a big pay day.
The pirates made over $50 million last year according to forbes. All trades should have NOTHING to do with money.
quote:
Because this is baseball and that is the way it has been done for years? Those players you also have a chance one becomes a superstar as well. All 3 could be a bust, the Pirates could feel that Cole won't correct his problems and what you saw last year is what you will get in the future. Therefore, instead of an ace you are looking at a #3/4 instead. If the Pirates traded Nova for this deal we would be saying great trade for the Pirates.
Old story for Pittsburghers. See above.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:41 am to BigD43
quote:Yeah just like Arrieta, Yu, etc No one wants to pay 160+ to a pitcher at 30 years old anymore....
So you admit that his salary would become an issue??? THAT is my point.
Plus this is the first time is ERA has been above 4
quote:James Tallison will be healthy this year and was pitching really well last year before cancer diagnosis.
He is still the best SP the buccos got.
quote:Oh yeah who was the last superstar they traded? Seems trades for Nova, Martin, Cervelli, Liranio, etc have worked out well for the Pirates.
Again, this is a VERY old story in Pittsburgh. we have seen these trades time and time again. The majority of the time, they do not work out.
quote:No shite, at 30 years old, what does that have to do with today? You are really focused on something 3 years away? It is about getting value now while he is at his peak and has a contract teams want.
But as you said, he would eventually be due for a big pay day.
quote:again give me some examples of the Pirates letting superstars leave or trade over the last few seasons.
Old story for Pittsburghers. See above.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:44 am to tduecen
quote:
You mean they just cut vital members to save money
Fair point.
However, in the NFL every team has the same amount of money to compete. In the NFL this only happens to teams who have pushed themselves against the cap. It was their own doing.
Plus, this happens far less in the NFL.
The pirates opened their documents back in 2011 to show that the owner gave the team a loan years before to keep their financials afloat. Back then we had a piss poor payroll year after year. You dont see that in the NFL.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 9:46 am to BigD43
quote:Not really but ok....
In the NFL this only happens to teams who have pushed themselves against the cap. It was their own doing.
quote:Like totally, I mean the NFL just never cuts starting players
Plus, this happens far less in the NFL.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 10:03 am to BigD43
quote:
Great trade for the Astros.
Pretty good trade for both teams really.
Pirates just got three guys that should make their opening day roster, and Feliz still has 4 years of control, Musgrove 5, and Moran 6. Jason Martin is a decent prospect as well.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 10:26 am to tduecen
quote:
Yeah just like Arrieta, Yu, etc No one wants to pay 160+ to a pitcher at 30 years old anymore....
Then make a run for it now. We have the talent in the minor leagues to deal away for few solid starters.
quote:
James Tallison will be healthy this year and was pitching really well last year before cancer diagnosis.
Taillon has yet to be consistent. Even if Taillon is the best, you shouldn't trade the second best for prospects, when you have nobody to replace him. Certainy nobody in terms of quality.
quote:
Oh yeah who was the last superstar they traded? Seems trades for Nova, Martin, Cervelli, Liranio, etc have worked out well for the Pirates.
Those aren't the trades I'm talking about. During the 20+ losing seasons in Pittsburgh we saw countless trades of credible major leaguers in exchange for prospects. They rarely worked out.
quote:
No shite, at 30 years old, what does that have to do with today? You are really focused on something 3 years away? It is about getting value now while he is at his peak and has a contract teams want.
They dont want to pay his contract tomorrow, so they traded him away today.
quote:
again give me some examples of the Pirates letting superstars leave or trade over the last few seasons.
I was talking about the 20+ losing seasons we had to endure. During that time we traded numerous starters in exchange for prospects rarely getting what we gave up.
Plus, they flat out released Juan Nicasio this past season, in hopes that another team would pick him up and we would not have to pay him.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 10:29 am to tduecen
quote:
Not really but ok....
Who's fault is it then?
quote:
Like totally, I mean the NFL just never cuts starting players
You had to of known that was well off point. I was talking about players in their prime that are getting cut in the nfl.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 10:43 am to BigD43
quote:
Derrick Goold ?Verified account @dgoold 3m3 minutes ago
Sources say #Cardinals interest in Colome was overstated (didn't see him as closer) and team has been hesitant to commit to heavy-workload relievers, preferring to side with Gregerson & The Kids to solve brittle bullpen:
Mo is fricking terrible, and to think he actually got promoted.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 10:59 am to BigD43
quote:Pirates are not good enough to make a run for it now, they're well behind the Dodgers, Cubs, Nationals, Diamondbacks, etc....
Then make a run for it now. We have the talent in the minor leagues to deal away for few solid starters.
3B, SS, SP they have a ton of holes... they could make a run at the WC again but it depends on how Cutch, Marte, and Polanco hit
quote:How do you know they have no one? Hell Musgrove could come out a pitch really well at 1/10 of the cost of Cole.
Even if Taillon is the best, you shouldn't trade the second best for prospects, when you have nobody to replace him. Certainy nobody in terms of quality.
quote:That is on the front office for not knowing value, of course teams have gotten smarter over the last 5 years.
Those aren't the trades I'm talking about. During the 20+ losing seasons in Pittsburgh we saw countless trades of credible major leaguers in exchange for prospects. They rarely worked out.
quote:Well no joke, again why would they want to pay him at 30? They're not winning next year so you get value today.
They dont want to pay his contract tomorrow,
quote:They put him on waivers so that they could get some younger players some MLB experience. He didn't save the Pirates much anyway, Huntington admitted that at the time of the release. That wasn't a move about money at all.
Plus, they flat out released Juan Nicasio this past season, in hopes that another team would pick him up and we would not have to pay him.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 11:03 am to BigD43
quote:
why trade cole
Because they realize they won't be a contender for the remaining 2 years of his contract. So even with him staying they might win 75 or 80 games instead of 70. They got 3 major league ready players back with high upside and a total. Of 17 years of team control.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 11:06 am to Tiger Ryno
Pirates probably give Kinham and Holmes a chance at the rotation this year as well.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 11:36 am to tduecen
quote:
Pirates are not good enough to make a run for it now, they're well behind the Dodgers, Cubs, Nationals, Diamondbacks, etc.... 3B, SS, SP they have a ton of holes... they could make a run at the WC again but it depends on how Cutch, Marte, and Polanco hit
I dont see how going through the same failed steps that gave us 20 straight losing seasons would resolve this issue.
quote:
How do you know they have no one? Hell Musgrove could come out a pitch really well at 1/10 of the cost of Cole.
I dont know. Nobody does. I am not going out on a limb when I suggest Cole is the safer bet.
quote:
That is on the front office for not knowing value, of course teams have gotten smarter over the last 5 years.
There have been numerous times when we dealt for prospects that were regarded as the top in the business and they dont work out. They're prospects for a reason.
quote:
Well no joke, again why would they want to pay him at 30? They're not winning next year so you get value today.
Because we got nothing better.
quote:
They put him on waivers so that they could get some younger players some MLB experience. He didn't save the Pirates much anyway, Huntington admitted that at the time of the release. That wasn't a move about money at all.
Seriously? Did you take their response at face value? In their mind it was money worth saving. If the owners were in it to win it, they would have made tens of millions of dollars last year.
Posted on 1/14/18 at 11:43 am to BigD43
quote:Again, what part of Front offices are smarter are you struggling with? Look around analytics and the people running baseball know what they're doing. You can't compare things that happened 20 years ago.
I dont see how going through the same failed steps that gave us 20 straight losing seasons would resolve this issue.
quote:To do what? Produce like he did last year? Bounce back to what he was before? Face it, Cole is a name but you have no idea how he pitches next year.
I am not going out on a limb when I suggest Cole is the safer bet.
quote:And we have countless time a trade happened that people were upset because a "name" player was traded, then that player sucked for his new team.
There have been numerous times when we dealt for prospects that were regarded as the top in the business and they dont work out. They're prospects for a reason
quote:You have no clue what you have
Because we got nothing better.
quote:You believe the 60k savings was about money? That is nothing to a MLB team, they released him. I mean you have to be one of the worst fans to be this despondent about this deal instead of seeing the potential of the 4 players involved.
Seriously? Did you take their response at face value? In their mind it was money worth saving. If the owners were in it to win it, they would have made tens of millions of dollars last year.
It is almost like Mariners fans when they traded Johnson, they thought it was the end of the world and those players turned out to be important pieces for the next few years, Even though Johnson continued to be a stud.
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