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Message

Short-term investing
Posted on 1/19/10 at 9:27 am
Posted on 1/19/10 at 9:27 am
I've been out of college for a year and a half and have been learning by trial and error in the stock market. I invested $5,000 last year in a bunch of long-term holds that I plan to keep for the next year or so, but now I'm looking to get into short-term investing. I've saved up another $5,000 or so to invest again, and I'm sort of not sure where to begin if I'm looking to make some cash over the next 3-4 months. Any help would be appreciated.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 10:00 am to FredSecunda
Technical Analysis. Learn that or you'll get smeared as a short-term trader.
Toni Turner's books or StockCharts.com's Chart School is where I'd begin.
Also: start becoming acquainted w/ level two quotes.
If you give me your email address, I'll point you in the right direction.
Toni Turner's books or StockCharts.com's Chart School is where I'd begin.
Also: start becoming acquainted w/ level two quotes.
If you give me your email address, I'll point you in the right direction.
This post was edited on 1/19/10 at 10:01 am
Posted on 1/19/10 at 10:29 am to FredSecunda
The only ways I know of to reliably make money in the financial markets require either enormous amounts of cash (i.e. you're running a billion dollar hedge fund and can move markets, hire a million-dollar analyst who actually does know what he's doing, etc.) or various illegal procedures (insider trading, pump and dump schemes, etc.)
There is no way for an individual to reliably make more money than a simple buy and hold. Including technical analysis schemes in there. They can be fun and are usually less expensive than any other form of gambling, but that's about it. If it were really that easy, all the mutual funds would be doing it already.
There is no way for an individual to reliably make more money than a simple buy and hold. Including technical analysis schemes in there. They can be fun and are usually less expensive than any other form of gambling, but that's about it. If it were really that easy, all the mutual funds would be doing it already.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 11:42 am to foshizzle
quote:
The only ways I know of to reliably make money in the financial markets require either enormous amounts of cash (i.e. you're running a billion dollar hedge fund and can move markets, hire a million-dollar analyst who actually does know what he's doing, etc.) or various illegal procedures (insider trading, pump and dump schemes, etc.)
There is no way for an individual to reliably make more money than a simple buy and hold. Including technical analysis schemes in there. They can be fun and are usually less expensive than any other form of gambling, but that's about it. If it were really that easy, all the mutual funds would be doing it already.
This is completely incorrect. Daytrading, swing trading, position trading, long, short, there are plenty of ways for individuals to make money in the market. You just have to educate yourself before jumping in head first.
Technical analysis "schemes"?
Posted on 1/19/10 at 12:42 pm to RedStickBR
redstickbr can you email me at dallastxtiger@yahoo.com and give me some advice or point me in the right direction. i have been wanting to do this for a while as well but dont have the knowledge for it. thanks
Posted on 1/19/10 at 12:54 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
Daytrading, swing trading, position trading, long, short, there are plenty of ways for individuals to make money in the market. You just have to educate yourself before jumping in head first.
Please - I have read and studied for several years about technical analysis, back when I was naive enough to think this had never occurred to anyone working on Wall Street as a way of making a little extra.
The problem is that it doesn't make any extra. It'll make some cash but then so will owning bonds. It loses a small amount compared with just buying and holding indexes. There are worse ways to spend time and money for entertainment, but that's about all that can be said for all these techniques.
It's possible to do better than buy and hold but you need to have several million invested in really fast software, hardware, data feeds and the people to maintain all that. That's what they typically do at a major hedge fund, which will not waste time on technical analysis techniques that have been touted for decades with no real success.
Think about it - anything that has been on the fringe for this long probably doesn't work as advertised.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 1:17 pm to foshizzle
You're completely wrong, no matter how long you've studied it. Do you know TA? I'm not being offensive, I just happen to know personally that you are very, very wrong.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 2:12 pm to FredSecunda
Open a Schwab IRA. You can invest in a PCRA (Personal Choice Retirement Account) which opens up the entire US market to you. Since it's an IRA, you don't pay any CG taxes on your profit each year.
However, like all traditional IRAs, you pay your taxes once you withdraw it.
However, like all traditional IRAs, you pay your taxes once you withdraw it.
This post was edited on 1/19/10 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 1/19/10 at 5:14 pm to foshizzle
I don't know TA outside of very basic stuff (and I don't trade), but I feel like if you're going to play the trading game (as opposed to buying and holding for an extended period of time), you need to recognize that, for the exact reasons you stated (IMO), a lot of TA basically becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, to some degree or another. This is my perception, at least.
This post was edited on 1/19/10 at 5:16 pm
Posted on 1/19/10 at 6:36 pm to LSUAlum2001
quote:
Open a Schwab IRA. You can invest in a PCRA (Personal Choice Retirement Account) which opens up the entire US market to you. Since it's an IRA, you don't pay any CG taxes on your profit each year.
I did this and am quite happy with it.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 6:42 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
You're completely wrong, no matter how long you've studied it. Do you know TA? I'm not being offensive, I just happen to know personally that you are very, very wrong.
Define TA.
If you are referring to algorithmic trading of the kind practiced by large hedge funds, see my earlier statement that this can be done if you have the money.
If you mean the kind practiced by floor traders in open outcry pits, keep in mind that they don't pay nearly the transaction costs the rest of us do.
If you mean charting, candlesticks, fibonacci, head and shoulders, etc., please back up your claim with a large data set showing long-term results from a large number of practitioners, including those who flame out (i.e. no cherry-picking). The set I used a while ago showed these techniques provide returns essentially the same as buy and hold minus the extra transaction costs.
ETA: I can't help but chuckle a bit at your statement that all it takes is a little "education", and then that you don't care how long I've studied it if I disagree.
This post was edited on 1/19/10 at 6:44 pm
Posted on 1/19/10 at 6:56 pm to foshizzle
1. TA as in basic charting tools. Patterns, trends, volume, ichimoku, candles, momentum indicators, leading indicators, lagging indicators, reversal indicators, fibs, you get the point.
2. I don't need to provide you with any sort of data set. There are plenty of individuals who make a fortune daily using nothing but technical analysis. To say that you can't make money doing so is not only wrong, but irresponsible advice to give a new investor. That's like saying YOU provide ME w/ a data set showing that TA doesn't work. You're not dumb enough to go through that trouble and neither am I.
3. I did not use the adjective "little" to describe the amount of education needed to become successful. However, I will say that even if you're buying the absolute best stock based on fundamentals and all you know about TA is to buy near support and not when the stock is overbought and posting a doji near resistance, then you're already making more money/saving yourself money, however you prefer to look at it.
4. TA is given more and more credibility on a daily basis. Find me a leading publication that doesn't recognize it (and your Buffett/Lynch books from the 80s don't count). Most Wall Street firms employ chartists now (and not to manage hedge funds either, but for your every day run-of-the-mill technical analyses on general market/individual security trends).
5. Say what you want, but to say it is impossible is naive maybe, but probably better characterized as extremely ignorant. Perhaps you just need to qualify your statement that "there is no way for an individual to reliably make money other than by using a buy and hold strategy", because that, my friend, is complete and utter bullshite and you know it.
2. I don't need to provide you with any sort of data set. There are plenty of individuals who make a fortune daily using nothing but technical analysis. To say that you can't make money doing so is not only wrong, but irresponsible advice to give a new investor. That's like saying YOU provide ME w/ a data set showing that TA doesn't work. You're not dumb enough to go through that trouble and neither am I.
3. I did not use the adjective "little" to describe the amount of education needed to become successful. However, I will say that even if you're buying the absolute best stock based on fundamentals and all you know about TA is to buy near support and not when the stock is overbought and posting a doji near resistance, then you're already making more money/saving yourself money, however you prefer to look at it.
4. TA is given more and more credibility on a daily basis. Find me a leading publication that doesn't recognize it (and your Buffett/Lynch books from the 80s don't count). Most Wall Street firms employ chartists now (and not to manage hedge funds either, but for your every day run-of-the-mill technical analyses on general market/individual security trends).
5. Say what you want, but to say it is impossible is naive maybe, but probably better characterized as extremely ignorant. Perhaps you just need to qualify your statement that "there is no way for an individual to reliably make money other than by using a buy and hold strategy", because that, my friend, is complete and utter bullshite and you know it.
This post was edited on 1/19/10 at 7:01 pm
Posted on 1/19/10 at 7:26 pm to RedStickBR
Redstick, be a champ and copy me on that email. You sound like you know what you are talking about man. Preciate it!
aceinvestmentsllc@gmail.com
aceinvestmentsllc@gmail.com
Posted on 1/19/10 at 9:09 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
2. I don't need to provide you with any sort of data set. There are plenty of individuals who make a fortune daily using nothing but technical analysis. To say that you can't make money doing so is not only wrong, but irresponsible advice to give a new investor. That's like saying YOU provide ME w/ a data set showing that TA doesn't work. You're not dumb enough to go through that trouble and neither am I.
I mean, there are probably a hundred papers on SSRN about this. The two I actually read were this one and this one, although I'm sure you can easily find ones with counterarguments. Anyway, like I said, IMO it has its uses. The market definitely doesn't trade on purely fundamentals, if on fundamentals at all.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 9:28 pm to kfizzle85
The abstract to Number One seems to tilt in favor of technical trading strategies if anything:
The abstract for Number Two is too long after all the reading I've already done today
We can debate market efficiency until the cows come home. All I know is that I know hundreds who successfully employ TA on a daily basis, and even if they're all full of it, I myself employ it with tremendous success. So even if I'm the only person on the planet who can "make significant money as an individual and without adhering in the majority of my plays to a buy-and-hold strategy", then I am perfectly fine with being that black sheep. And I say this with the utmost humility.
If you're not using TA when you're buying and selling stocks, then chances are you're paying too much on the front side of the transaction and not taking enough off the table on the back end.
As for transaction costs ... they're not even 1/10th of a single percent of my average investment amount. I mean seriously, you can find online brokers who charge less than 5 bucks a trade nowadays.
And one last thing, I employ a system I call Technimental Analysis as I only use TA after first filtering the security through my fundamental analysis. So FA tells me what to buy, and TA tells me when to buy and sell. And then, of course, QA also plays its role. But if I were only able to use one system, I'd take TA hands down any day of the week, especially considering its inherent ability to detect deteriorating fundamentals, albeit indirectly. The opposite can not be said for FA.
quote:
The purpose of this report is to review the evidence on the profitability of technical analysis. The empirical literature is categorized into two groups, "early" and "modern" studies, according to the characteristics of testing procedures. Early studies indicated that technical trading strategies were profitable in foreign exchange markets and futures markets, but not in stock markets before the 1980s. Modern studies indicated that technical trading strategies consistently generated economic profits in a variety of speculative markets at least until the early 1990s. Among a total of 92 modern studies, 58 studies found positive results regarding technical trading strategies, while 24 studies obtained negative results. Ten studies indicated mixed results. Despite the positive evidence on the profitability of technical trading strategies, it appears that most empirical studies are subject to various problems in their testing procedures, e.g., data snooping, ex post selection of trading rules or search technologies, and difficulties in estimation of risk and transaction costs. Future research must address these deficiencies in testing in order to provide conclusive evidence on the profitability of technical trading strategies.
The abstract for Number Two is too long after all the reading I've already done today
We can debate market efficiency until the cows come home. All I know is that I know hundreds who successfully employ TA on a daily basis, and even if they're all full of it, I myself employ it with tremendous success. So even if I'm the only person on the planet who can "make significant money as an individual and without adhering in the majority of my plays to a buy-and-hold strategy", then I am perfectly fine with being that black sheep. And I say this with the utmost humility.
If you're not using TA when you're buying and selling stocks, then chances are you're paying too much on the front side of the transaction and not taking enough off the table on the back end.
As for transaction costs ... they're not even 1/10th of a single percent of my average investment amount. I mean seriously, you can find online brokers who charge less than 5 bucks a trade nowadays.
And one last thing, I employ a system I call Technimental Analysis as I only use TA after first filtering the security through my fundamental analysis. So FA tells me what to buy, and TA tells me when to buy and sell. And then, of course, QA also plays its role. But if I were only able to use one system, I'd take TA hands down any day of the week, especially considering its inherent ability to detect deteriorating fundamentals, albeit indirectly. The opposite can not be said for FA.
This post was edited on 1/19/10 at 9:37 pm
Posted on 1/19/10 at 9:48 pm to RedStickBR
Well, like I said, I'm not arguing against it, just pointing out that there are a myriad of academic studies that have been done on the subject. I'm glad you brought up market efficiency, because according to one of the papers I read (I'm not sure if it is one of those two), TA demonstrated usefulness in deep ("efficient" if you will, for the sake of the argument) capital markets, but was much less useful in emerging/undeveloped capital markets (it also said it was less useful on indexes as opposed to individual securities, which is kind of paradoxical from a liquidity perspective, but I digress).
To me, that is just further demonstration of my point that perception is reality. If TA is theory-based, and you, Highbridge's supercomputer, Rentec's 8 supercomputers, and everyone else using TA are all looking at the same chart and supposed to be coming to the same conclusion, and the big boys can actually move the market on that interpretation...then it is a self-fulfilling event. Are you going to beat Rentec to the punch and extract the absolute maximum possible gain? Of course not, but do you have to in the first place? If I see something where I can grab 4% on a trade, I don't give a shite if Rentec just did the same thing and earned 8%. It doesn't matter that it has literally nothing to do with the underlying security on a fundamental basis, money is money. Again, this is just IMO.
To me, that is just further demonstration of my point that perception is reality. If TA is theory-based, and you, Highbridge's supercomputer, Rentec's 8 supercomputers, and everyone else using TA are all looking at the same chart and supposed to be coming to the same conclusion, and the big boys can actually move the market on that interpretation...then it is a self-fulfilling event. Are you going to beat Rentec to the punch and extract the absolute maximum possible gain? Of course not, but do you have to in the first place? If I see something where I can grab 4% on a trade, I don't give a shite if Rentec just did the same thing and earned 8%. It doesn't matter that it has literally nothing to do with the underlying security on a fundamental basis, money is money. Again, this is just IMO.
Posted on 1/19/10 at 9:49 pm to RedStickBR
quote:
especially considering its inherent ability to detect deteriorating fundamentals, albeit indirectly. The opposite can not be said for FA.
Can you expand on that?
Posted on 1/19/10 at 10:02 pm to kfizzle85
Sure. I have support drawn on Stock A at 15 bucks. Stock A has bounced off of that level 3 times (a triple bottom). So at 15 bucks, investors are willing to buy back in as they think the price of the security has become cheap.
Stock A's fundamentals begin to slip. As a result, 15 dollars no longer appears cheap and the stock slides below 15. If I'm a technical investor only and don't know a lick about the company's fundamentals, I'm out the second it breaks below 15. And I can do this successfully without looking at a single balance sheet (although I'd never recommend investing on technicals alone, even though I know many who do it).
Fundamental analysis has no way of controlling for deteriorating technicals.
It's a shame most people are "one or the other" when the two are so incredibly inter-connected. Technical analysis is merely a visual representation of a company's fundamentals (for most companies; obviously for others i.e. pump and dumps it speaks nothing of the company's fundamentals).
Too many start-up investors think successful investing is about being able to pick the best companies. What they should focus on is minimizing risk through the utilization of all the tools available to them (TA, FA, QA, whatever the hell else). They will then find that the "best companies" come to them, as opposed to the other way around. The focus should be on minimization of risk, and to be effective at doing that, you have to do a whole lot more than looking at balance sheets.
Stock A's fundamentals begin to slip. As a result, 15 dollars no longer appears cheap and the stock slides below 15. If I'm a technical investor only and don't know a lick about the company's fundamentals, I'm out the second it breaks below 15. And I can do this successfully without looking at a single balance sheet (although I'd never recommend investing on technicals alone, even though I know many who do it).
Fundamental analysis has no way of controlling for deteriorating technicals.
It's a shame most people are "one or the other" when the two are so incredibly inter-connected. Technical analysis is merely a visual representation of a company's fundamentals (for most companies; obviously for others i.e. pump and dumps it speaks nothing of the company's fundamentals).
Too many start-up investors think successful investing is about being able to pick the best companies. What they should focus on is minimizing risk through the utilization of all the tools available to them (TA, FA, QA, whatever the hell else). They will then find that the "best companies" come to them, as opposed to the other way around. The focus should be on minimization of risk, and to be effective at doing that, you have to do a whole lot more than looking at balance sheets.
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