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Message
re: Official CryptoTalk Thread
Posted on 11/13/22 at 4:24 pm to CarRamrod
Posted on 11/13/22 at 4:24 pm to CarRamrod
a whole lot of ooof in your post.
nope just because you don't understand what my words are saying doesn't mean i'm ignoring yours. its not the same vulnerability or regulation as ETH. US could regulate BTC but btc as a whole would be fine. for example China and others have banned BTC several times dating back to 2013 and yet BTC has a more robust network than ever before. as it stands today, if the US wanted to regulate eth...the entirety of eth gets regulated.
owning a majority of bitcoin is 100% irrelevant regarding centralization... its about the decentralization of the miners so even though ownership seems centralized to you, you are incorrect that btc is centralized.
if POW gets banned minable coins are fine, just like they have been fine when they have been banned in other countries. even in those countries that banned crypto/BTC, individuals still mined. thats because banning POW just isnt realistic as it would require 100% enforcement for every single individual on the planet with access to internet.
and yes amazon or the gov can censor or regulate ETH on a whim since they control a majority of the network because it is centralized by amazon which is beholden to the gov and is realistically easily enforceable.
weird argument considering it would take more money for ETH to overtake BTC which you seem to think will happen.
quote:
regulation..... I guess you like to pick and choose the words you want to ignore.
nope just because you don't understand what my words are saying doesn't mean i'm ignoring yours. its not the same vulnerability or regulation as ETH. US could regulate BTC but btc as a whole would be fine. for example China and others have banned BTC several times dating back to 2013 and yet BTC has a more robust network than ever before. as it stands today, if the US wanted to regulate eth...the entirety of eth gets regulated.
quote:
BTC 100% has centralized ownership. What it is like 2000 wallets own what 70% of the BTC. Not sure of the exact number but that's that's pretty centralized to me. And you say Amazon could censor it on a whim. The US could outlaw POW mining. Then what.
owning a majority of bitcoin is 100% irrelevant regarding centralization... its about the decentralization of the miners so even though ownership seems centralized to you, you are incorrect that btc is centralized.
if POW gets banned minable coins are fine, just like they have been fine when they have been banned in other countries. even in those countries that banned crypto/BTC, individuals still mined. thats because banning POW just isnt realistic as it would require 100% enforcement for every single individual on the planet with access to internet.
and yes amazon or the gov can censor or regulate ETH on a whim since they control a majority of the network because it is centralized by amazon which is beholden to the gov and is realistically easily enforceable.
quote:
you don't know what am S curve is so you. How much money will it take to double the price of BTC right now?
You are not early in BTC. Still early in the space, sure.
weird argument considering it would take more money for ETH to overtake BTC which you seem to think will happen.
This post was edited on 11/13/22 at 5:14 pm
2
Posted on 11/13/22 at 5:27 pm to AMS
quote:
weird argument considering it would take more money for ETH to overtake BTC which you seem to think will happen.
You’re talking about market cap. I believe he’s talking about price.
Give me the higher appreciating asset, you can have your “bigger marketcap” lol
This post was edited on 11/13/22 at 5:43 pm
Posted on 11/13/22 at 6:00 pm to boomtown143
quote:
You’re talking about market cap. I believe talking about price.
Give me the higher appreciating asset, you can have your “bigger marketcap” lol
carramrod and I were talking about the flippening ie dominance in market cap. 'the car overtaking the horse'
I don't disagree with your point on the separate topic of appreciation potential. but your statement assumes one or the other type scenario. just because ETH has a lower price doesn't mean it will appreciate more. just like historically BTC appreciated more than ETH. although individually I guess that depends on timing and such.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 6:09 pm to boomtown143
Bitcoin is slower, more expensive to transact, doesn't have smart contracts, has the most adoption, is very centralized, and the price has been sideways over the past 5 years.
Time Magazine
Wall Street Journal
I'm not saying Bitcoin won't go up in price. I believe it will outgain the stock market over time. I am saying that ETH >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTC as an investment.
Time Magazine
quote:
The concentration of miners is even more profound, data show. NBER found that the top 10% of miners control 90% of the Bitcoin mining capacity, and just 0.1% (about 50 miners) control 50% of mining capacity.
Wall Street Journal
quote:
With an estimated 114 million people globally holding the cryptocurrency, according to crypto.com, that means that approximately 0.01% of bitcoin holders control 27% of the 19 million bitcoin in circulation.
I'm not saying Bitcoin won't go up in price. I believe it will outgain the stock market over time. I am saying that ETH >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTC as an investment.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:09 pm to tenderfoot tigah
When I want to learn about Bitcoin and the mining network, I for sure turn to Time Magazine. Surely the guys over there know what they are talking about.
It is interesting, though, that when I clicked your Time magazine link they cited exactly ZERO sources for their numbers.
You could, for an example, use live blockchain data: LINK
The network, my friend, is no where near centralized.
Also, I would say it is somewhat disingenuous to say BTC is centralized and then NOT talk about ETH staking/nodes and its distribution of control....
For example, if you were to compare say miners vs Nodes, on ETH, 64% of all staked ETH is controlled by 5 Node operators.
I guess, in a way, we can look at things and attempt to make them look poorly too for ETH...
It is interesting, though, that when I clicked your Time magazine link they cited exactly ZERO sources for their numbers.
You could, for an example, use live blockchain data: LINK
The network, my friend, is no where near centralized.
Also, I would say it is somewhat disingenuous to say BTC is centralized and then NOT talk about ETH staking/nodes and its distribution of control....
For example, if you were to compare say miners vs Nodes, on ETH, 64% of all staked ETH is controlled by 5 Node operators.
I guess, in a way, we can look at things and attempt to make them look poorly too for ETH...
This post was edited on 11/13/22 at 7:13 pm
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:09 pm to AMS
quote:
and yes amazon or the gov can censor or regulate ETH on a whim since they control a majority of the network because it is centralized by amazon which is beholden to the gov and is realistically easily enforceable.
I want to understand this more as it relates to bitcoin. I understand it quite well in regards to Ethereum, or at least I hope I do.
Let's look at the Tornado Cash thing still going on. So a shite ton of nodes run on AWS. Uncle Sam could tell Amazon tomorrow to shut down Eth nodes running on their servers because they are in violation of law. Okay. So we lose those nodes. The rest of the network picks up the slack and the void is filled.
It's the same as if the US outlawed PoW. It moves elsewhere. The US could also ban any exchanges from handling coins that utilize PoW. Same thing. It moves elsewhere and we figure out how to get around it.
I think a more valid critique of ETH is in regards to consolidation of staking/validators. We could end up with a scenario where 66% of the staked ETH is in a only a couple places, which is bad. Like Lido and Coinbase could have 66% of the staked ETH and they could choose what they want to censor. I don't like that, which is why we have to preach decentralization.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:14 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:
I want to understand this more as it relates to bitcoin. I understand it quite well in regards to Ethereum, or at least I hope I do.
Let's look at the Tornado Cash thing still going on. So a shite ton of nodes run on AWS. Uncle Sam could tell Amazon tomorrow to shut down Eth nodes running on their servers because they are in violation of law. Okay. So we lose those nodes. The rest of the network picks up the slack and the void is filled.
It's the same as if the US outlawed PoW. It moves elsewhere. The US could also ban any exchanges from handling coins that utilize PoW. Same thing. It moves elsewhere and we figure out how to get around it.
I think a more valid critique of ETH is in regards to consolidation of staking/validators. We could end up with a scenario where 66% of the staked ETH is in a only a couple places, which is bad. Like Lido and Coinbase could have 66% of the staked ETH and they could choose what they want to censor. I don't like that, which is why we have to preach decentralization.
The problem with POS is, currently, you are not in control of staked ETH unless you are a node operator.
SO, in your scenario, if the government got ahold of the servers, there goes the staked ETH...
That cant happen with BTC network and POW.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:18 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
The US could outlaw POW mining. Then what.
The US only makes up 28% of all BTC mining.
So the "then what" would be network difficulty drops until those miners relocate.
Like when China banned it and the US grew in mining share....
This post was edited on 11/13/22 at 7:22 pm
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:20 pm to TSLG
quote:
Y'alls argument is kind of funky.
One of yall needs to think about the other's position better.
I dont feel like getting into it though.
Its hard to separate the BTC token and the BTC network. Often, the problem gets talked about as if those are the same; they aren't. While mining rewards a token(s), after that, you do not need said token ever again to mine or validate the next block. Obviously, the network is the added layer of hardware security. It is robust, functional, and 100% stood the test of time.
With POS, Token and function ARE intertwined with the way nodes, staking, validators, etc work. Varies slightly from chain to chain though.
This post was edited on 11/13/22 at 7:27 pm
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:29 pm to AMS
quote:lol.
just like historically BTC appreciated more than ETH.
No. Eth has appreciated more than BTC at it's current age.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:30 pm to Hulkklogan
quote:
Not sure it makes much difference. If nation states nuke BTC as an asset then the Bitcoin network is still vulnerable.. it's not directly tied to the monetary value but if BTC is no longer profitable to mine then the network dies just as well.
In this scenario, then all of it, every project, is gone.
I cant think of a scenario the worlds governments agree to nuke the BTC network and leave the rest of the degen shite...
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:30 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
SO, in your scenario, if the government got ahold of the servers, there goes the staked ETH...
They don't lose it all, at least not for a while. They get slashed until they can set up their validator elsewhere. To me, that's the incentive to not use AWS or Azure or whatever except as a backup to your main validator, which you can do.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:32 pm to JayDeerTay84
I'm on your side in regards to bitcoin. I'm also on Ethereum's side. The networks will find a way around it.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:32 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:
They don't lose it all, at least not for a while. They get slashed until they can set up their validator elsewhere. To me, that's the incentive to not use AWS or Azure or whatever except as a backup to your main validator, which you can do.
I meant from a physical server perspective. If the staked ETH that is "locked up", you know not your keys, is physically detained, its all gone right?
I was just talking out these dooms day scenarios is all.
To me, the physical servers storing all these nodes is by far the Biggest risk to POS chains.
Obviously there is backups but I can 100% see an AWS node runner using (also) AWS for "backup"...
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:34 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:
I'm on your side in regards to bitcoin. I'm also on Ethereum's side. The networks will find a way around it.
Yea, I mean I think both exist and should. Im not an either or.
And I use the shite out of BNB and that is most certainly centralized. So I understand the risks.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:36 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
lol.
No. Eth has appreciated more than BTC at it's current age.
...lol yes. i said historically which is true, from inception to now BTC has appreciated more. i also added depending on what time frame but i suppose you just pick and choose what to ignore. just like you ignored the rebuttles to your oof arguments like the fact that ETH is beholden to much more regulation and is subject to the whims of the gov/amazon, banning POW being nonsense, ownership of btc being irrelevant for centralization, the amount of money being more for the flippening etc.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:48 pm to JayDeerTay84
quote:
If the staked ETH that is "locked up", you know not your keys, is physically detained, its all gone right?
You don't lose it, you just get penalized. Like, if I'm hosting at home (and don't have a backup) and my server dies in a house fire, I don't lose my ETH. I just get slightly slashed until I can get it running elsewhere. Slashing for downtime is very small compared to slashing for malicious network actions.
I don't really buy the FUD around AWS and such. Again, I do buy the FUD around consolidation of staking providers, just like Bitcoin had a problem with consolidation of mining pools a while back.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 7:58 pm to BottomlandBrew
quote:
Let's look at the Tornado Cash thing still going on. So a shite ton of nodes run on AWS. Uncle Sam could tell Amazon tomorrow to shut down Eth nodes running on their servers because they are in violation of law. Okay. So we lose those nodes. The rest of the network picks up the slack and the void is filled.
It's the same as if the US outlawed PoW. It moves elsewhere. The US could also ban any exchanges from handling coins that utilize PoW. Same thing. It moves elsewhere and we figure out how to get around it.
I think a more valid critique of ETH is in regards to consolidation of staking/validators. We could end up with a scenario where 66% of the staked ETH is in a only a couple places, which is bad. Like Lido and Coinbase could have 66% of the staked ETH and they could choose what they want to censor. I don't like that, which is why we have to preach decentralization.
that IS what i was referring to. i wasnt saying the gov would BAN eth, but could regulate the network. I dont think bans are the real threat due to the fact that others will just replace whoever was banned, and even some people banned will continue to do what they are doing just like china with BTC.
my point was basically either amazon or the gov for whimsical reasons such as ESG score could decide ape related NFTs are racist and censor them from the ethereum network.
we already have the scenario where amazon controls the majority of the network.
they could decide randomcoin is money laundering, misinformation, and censor it.
they could invest in xcoin and censor its competition ycoin.
the draw for eth is the apps/use of its network and now anything interacting with the ETH network is vulnerable.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 8:08 pm to AMS
You're valid in your concern, just not in the mechanics of how it happens. AWS can "censor" their eth validators right now. Doesn't matter. They're just not online anymore. Amazon doesn't control the validators. They just power them.
The censorship comes from the validator itself. I could tell my validator to not validate Eth tainted by Tornado Cash. That has no effect on the network as I'm just small potatoes. Now, let's say Lido directs their validators to not validate TC-tainted eth. That's a much bigger issue, and I think the one you are really talking about. If both Lido and Coinbase decide to do it, and they control 66% percent of the validators, that's a massive thing, and any ETH person who denies that has their head in the sand.
That said, a lot of smart people in the ethereum community understand this. The community could decide to slash a big validator if they approached a certain "market share" of the staked eth.
The censorship comes from the validator itself. I could tell my validator to not validate Eth tainted by Tornado Cash. That has no effect on the network as I'm just small potatoes. Now, let's say Lido directs their validators to not validate TC-tainted eth. That's a much bigger issue, and I think the one you are really talking about. If both Lido and Coinbase decide to do it, and they control 66% percent of the validators, that's a massive thing, and any ETH person who denies that has their head in the sand.
That said, a lot of smart people in the ethereum community understand this. The community could decide to slash a big validator if they approached a certain "market share" of the staked eth.
Posted on 11/13/22 at 8:13 pm to AMS
quote:I didn't ignore it.....I just started comparing apples to apples.
also added depending on what time frame but i suppose you just pick and choose what to ignore.
quote:that's cute.
oof arguments
quote:as me and others have disproved your logic as everything is beholden to the government, and also everything has a way around it. But the only thing keeping the big miners and the hif validators doing their thing, is value in what they are doing ...that value goes away, so do they.
the fact that ETH is beholden to much more regulation and is subject to the whims of the gov/amazon, banning POW being nonsense, ownership of btc being irrelevant for centralization, the amount of money being more for the flippening etc.
But let's back up. We both feel the value is there. So we are arguing what has the best value. And your argument of an asset that is 13 6eara old at the top of it's S-curve, which basically has to be traded on a centralized exchanges, which has nothing else on its network, is better than something that is pretty much opposite?
Do you know how much money was spent mining BTC last year vs the amount of BTC minted...
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