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re: Discussion of Fed Liquidity’s Impact on Equity Markets

Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:45 pm to
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:45 pm to
I had to turn away for a minute, but do I have it right that he started off super dovish with no mention of taper in his prepared remarks and then snuck in “taper could be ended by middle of next year” and “could begin next month” in response to these last few questions?
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 9/22/21 at 2:58 pm to
I stopped listening after he started talking about unemployment by race
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 9/24/21 at 1:01 pm to
I listened to a SVM interview and I thought I’d share the wisdom. The reverse repo move they pulled was to artificially increase demand for treasuries and it worked. That’s why the recent auctions have had crazy demand from indirect bidders. I’ll have to slow walk my way through it but it makes sense at first glance considering it worked.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 9/24/21 at 8:16 pm to
So the Fed basically started selling Treasuries to get rates back up to a point that other people wanted to buy them?
Posted by Turf Taint
New Orleans
Member since Jun 2021
6010 posts
Posted on 9/24/21 at 8:31 pm to
At the core of your original post, is this about understanding the implications of the natural market forces or artificially imposed forces? Is this about drawing a demarcating distinction of market impact between the two? Perhaps it was to understand these at the macro, micro, organization, and individual levels? Other?

Love your curiosity, perspective, and challenge to expand our thinking.

What is at the essence of your original post? It has been a long time and many posts in-between. I am curious about what is at in situ here?
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 9/25/21 at 12:10 pm to
Sure, so when the original post was made, there was a lot of commentary out there that the “Fed’s QE was making its way into the market.” The original purpose of the thread was to (a) determine whether or not that could actually be proven to be true and (b) if so, how one could “follow the money,” so to speak.

Over the course of the thread we’ve learned a lot about what QE is and what it’s not. At a basic level, we determined that it’s little more than an asset swap. The Fed creates digital reserves and uses those to buy Treasuries from banks, in the process reducing the average duration of the liability side of its balance sheet (i.e. all of those newly issued reserves are essentially over night cash liabilities to the Fed). Moreover, the Fed’s purchases of Treasuries creates additional demand for Treasuries and in a manner that is very price agnostic. As such, that can tend to put upward pressure on Treasury prices and downward pressure on Treasury rates relative to where those rates would be required to be if private market participants were the only ones doing all the purchasing.

In understanding that, I think I can say the board has collectively realized that the Fed’s QE isn’t necessarily “finding its way into the markets,” but rather has a more indirect impact on markets in that the additional demand for Treasuries puts downward pressure on Treasury rates which in turn puts downward pressure on equity yields (upward pressure on equity prices), assuming equity yields maintain a constant spread against Treasury yields. The other factor that has become apparent is that the Fed’s dovish messaging, giving market participants the impression that “the Fed has their backs,” causes risk to be priced with a much lower premium that what you’d expect relative to historical volatility and current valuation.

So, QE is putting downward pressure on bond yields (and by extension, equity yields) and its “whatever it takes” mentality is causing market participants to exert further downward pressure on equity yields in the form of a shrinking equity risk premium relative to history (which, in a perfect world, would be the opposite of what you’d expect to see in an environment of very high valuations; high valuations should mean lower expected returns which in turn should mean lower tolerance for risk).

We’ve also talked a lot about whether or not QE is inherently inflationary. The conclusion I’ve come to is that it’s not inherently inflationary, and could even be deflationary in that artificially low rates cause capital to be allocated towards projects that are increasingly unattractive, with said inefficient use of capital having a drag on productivity, and with said drag on productivity having a stagnating or deflationary effect on the economy at large.

Nonetheless, given that QE creates bank reserves, and bank reserves can be leveraged by banks to increase loans, QE can be inflationary if instead of sitting idle on bank balance sheets those reserves result in a greater quantity of money in the real economy. We’ve noticed many banks are still being somewhat conservative with their lending given low net interest margins and fewer opportunities for attractive risk-adjusted loans. So, QE can be thought of as planting the seeds for potential inflation, but whether those seeds grow into inflation-bearing trees is in large part dependent upon what banks do with them (hoard them or loan against them).

That said, there has been one aspect with this current QE that has been different than previous versions, and that’s that recent QE has been implemented with a view towards not just buying Treasuries from private markets but enabling government deficit spending, and much of that spending (stimulus payments, etc.) has been in the form of helicopter money directly to lower and middle income people who are more likely to spend it. That has been a form of inflationary pressure (M2 expansion) that wasn’t as prevalent in previous QEs.

What to make of all of this? The Fed’s actions can have indirect and quasi-direct impacts on markets primarily through the mechanisms of relative asset class yields and investor perceptions towards risk. To date, we haven’t seen the direct impact some other countries have, wherein central banks actually start buying equities themselves. The Fed’s actions can also have indirect, quasi-direct or even direct (if you’re a monetarist) impacts on inflation, particularly if it enables fiscal spending into segments of society most likely to spend those dollars back into the economy. But it can also be long-term deflationary if it causes things like capital to be misallocated, zombie companies to “remain on the shelf” beyond their expiration date, and governments, businesses and households to take on too much debt which eventually requires belt-tightening in order to repay.

There you have it. I know it’s a lot, but the thread has covered a lot. There are surely others like wutang and Cork who may have more to add or who may disagree with or see things differently than what I’ve described above.

Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35239 posts
Posted on 9/25/21 at 12:27 pm to
quote:

RedStickBR
Great post that summarizes (and simplifies for clarity) a lot of what I’ve seen economists discussing.
Posted by tokenBoiler
Lafayette, Indiana
Member since Aug 2012
4417 posts
Posted on 9/25/21 at 3:36 pm to
quote:

$1.3T YTD between just 5 PDs.
I'm ignorant but trying to learn. PD ?

ETA: I didn't realize I was looking at the past when I started reading. But still, what does 'PD' stand for?
This post was edited on 9/25/21 at 3:50 pm
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 9/27/21 at 9:57 am to
Primary dealer

RBR with a pretty good summary of a 50 page thread in a few paragraphs. Impressive.
This post was edited on 9/27/21 at 11:01 am
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 9/27/21 at 11:04 am to
The only thing that I'd add is the impact on equity valuations with the growing presence of passive investing and increasing use of stock buybacks to replace earnings growth and the dog walking that both tails do to price.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 9/28/21 at 9:59 am to
Today’s macro heat map is doing what you would expect to see if everyone went risk-off. Not saying that’s happening, just noting the pattern:

1. Nasdaq down more than S&P down more than DJIA

2. Yields up

3. Dollar up

That, to me, is the quintessential risk-off combo. Did I miss any?
Posted by Hussss
Living the Dream
Member since Oct 2016
6744 posts
Posted on 9/28/21 at 11:39 am to
Here is the 64M dollar question:

Can the bond market force the Fed’s hand?

Sure feels like the bond market is calling the Fed’s bluff (numerous bluffs / jawboning)

I’ve said it many times: once the markets lose faith in the Fed, it’s game over.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 9/28/21 at 11:54 am to




Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 9/28/21 at 11:57 am to
Any uptick at all today?

And that chart may go down as the poster child of distortions in financial markets.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 9/28/21 at 12:39 pm to
I'll check it out tomorrow but looking at HYG and LQD I doubt it.
Posted by Nephropidae
Brentwood
Member since Nov 2018
2387 posts
Posted on 9/28/21 at 9:08 pm to
quote:

Sure, so when the original post was made, there was a lot of commentary out there that the “Fed’s QE was making its way into the market.” The original purpose of the thread was to (a) determine whether or not that could actually be proven to be true and (b) if so, how one could “follow the money,” so to speak. Over the course of the thread we’ve learned a lot about what QE is and what it’s not. At a basic level, we determined that it’s little more than an asset swap. The Fed creates digital reserves and uses those to buy Treasuries from banks, in the process reducing the average duration of the liability side of its balance sheet (i.e. all of those newly issued reserves are essentially over night cash liabilities to the Fed). Moreover, the Fed’s purchases of Treasuries creates additional demand for Treasuries and in a manner that is very price agnostic. As such, that can tend to put upward pressure on Treasury prices and downward pressure on Treasury rates relative to where those rates would be required to be if private market participants were the only ones doing all the purchasing. In understanding that, I think I can say the board has collectively realized that the Fed’s QE isn’t necessarily “finding its way into the markets,” but rather has a more indirect impact on markets in that the additional demand for Treasuries puts downward pressure on Treasury rates which in turn puts downward pressure on equity yields (upward pressure on equity prices), assuming equity yields maintain a constant spread against Treasury yields. The other factor that has become apparent is that the Fed’s dovish messaging, giving market participants the impression that “the Fed has their backs,” causes risk to be priced with a much lower premium that what you’d expect relative to historical volatility and current valuation. So, QE is putting downward pressure on bond yields (and by extension, equity yields) and its “whatever it takes” mentality is causing market participants to exert further downward pressure on equity yields in the form of a shrinking equity risk premium relative to history (which, in a perfect world, would be the opposite of what you’d expect to see in an environment of very high valuations; high valuations should mean lower expected returns which in turn should mean lower tolerance for risk). We’ve also talked a lot about whether or not QE is inherently inflationary. The conclusion I’ve come to is that it’s not inherently inflationary, and could even be deflationary in that artificially low rates cause capital to be allocated towards projects that are increasingly unattractive, with said inefficient use of capital having a drag on productivity, and with said drag on productivity having a stagnating or deflationary effect on the economy at large. Nonetheless, given that QE creates bank reserves, and bank reserves can be leveraged by banks to increase loans, QE can be inflationary if instead of sitting idle on bank balance sheets those reserves result in a greater quantity of money in the real economy. We’ve noticed many banks are still being somewhat conservative with their lending given low net interest margins and fewer opportunities for attractive risk-adjusted loans. So, QE can be thought of as planting the seeds for potential inflation, but whether those seeds grow into inflation-bearing trees is in large part dependent upon what banks do with them (hoard them or loan against them). That said, there has been one aspect with this current QE that has been different than previous versions, and that’s that recent QE has been implemented with a view towards not just buying Treasuries from private markets but enabling government deficit spending, and much of that spending (stimulus payments, etc.) has been in the form of helicopter money directly to lower and middle income people who are more likely to spend it. That has been a form of inflationary pressure (M2 expansion) that wasn’t as prevalent in previous QEs. What to make of all of this? The Fed’s actions can have indirect and quasi-direct impacts on markets primarily through the mechanisms of relative asset class yields and investor perceptions towards risk. To date, we haven’t seen the direct impact some other countries have, wherein central banks actually start buying equities themselves. The Fed’s actions can also have indirect, quasi-direct or even direct (if you’re a monetarist) impacts on inflation, particularly if it enables fiscal spending into segments of society most likely to spend those dollars back into the economy. But it can also be long-term deflationary if it causes things like capital to be misallocated, zombie companies to “remain on the shelf” beyond their expiration date, and governments, businesses and households to take on too much debt which eventually requires belt-tightening in order to repay. There you have it. I know it’s a lot, but the thread has covered a lot. There are surely others like wutang and Cork who may have more to add or who may disagree with or see things differently than what I’ve described above.




This dude for fed chair
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 9/30/21 at 7:24 am to
I’m sure you’ve noticed King Dollar throwing its weight around here recently …
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 10/20/21 at 12:26 pm to
quote:

I’m sure you’ve noticed King Dollar throwing its weight around here recently …



Treasury auction today says if you come at the king you best not miss. PM participation even lower according to Santeli than the past several auctions. But remember we're printing money. German bunds got bid and they hit their highest inflation marks in quite some time. Just another big market to keep an eye on. German recession tipped off the global trade contraction for me in 2019, and that's when everything began to break.
This post was edited on 10/20/21 at 12:34 pm
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 10/21/21 at 9:34 am to
quote:

Treasury auction today says if you come at the king you best not miss. PM participation even lower according to Santeli than the past several auctions. But remember we're printing money. German bunds got bid and they hit their highest inflation marks in quite some time. Just another big market to keep an eye on. German recession tipped off the global trade contraction for me in 2019, and that's when everything began to break.


That is very interesting. I haven't been nerding out on the Treasury auctions results like I should be. I imagine Wolf Richter has some insights on this. Will post anything I find, and good catch.
Posted by wutangfinancial
Treasure Valley
Member since Sep 2015
11129 posts
Posted on 10/21/21 at 9:55 am to
Reuters - Auction Results

I want to see the graph of participation by investor type. I'll post it when I find it.
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