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A rant about gov’t property code enforcement racket
Posted on 4/30/20 at 7:44 am
Posted on 4/30/20 at 7:44 am
My legal father (he adopted me when I was 12, then abandoned when I was 14, never saw or heard from him again) died last May. Almost two months later, extended family were able to track me down to tell me. I was his only living heir; the dude was like a survivalist loner or something. Everyone else in his family either didn’t care about him or didn’t have money to work the probate/inheritance process, so I took it if for no other reason than to maybe learn who he was by digging through his belongings. My mom died many years ago from cancer and I really don’t have any other family (besides my own wife/kids). He didn’t have much, but he did have a small cottage home near Pensacola. All other belongings either went to family members (books, pictures and sentimental stuff to his own kin) or was hauled off to the dump or donated.
Anyway, I completed the probate process and was titled the house. It had no mortgage. I had an inspection done and it needs a new roof, new HVAC system and a lot of other smaller repairs. The estimated repairs are about $35,000, so I decided to sell it off. The expense required to keep it is not worth it IMO. It’s not a home I would live in, so renting it would be my only option. So, I got a investor buyer almost immediately.
Turns out the house has liens on it from Escambia County. It took an incredible amount of effort to get the commissioner’s office to respond to me, but the liens were from another property my father had owned (it was sold off in a tax sale years before his death). First, the amounts totaled $10,000. Then, I was told by the district 5 manager the amount was $20,000. I was pissed, but I agreed to pay it just to hurry up and get rid of the house and was transferred to another person who handled payment. She said the amount was $38,000. After going round and round with these goons, I requested an appeal. I have a hearing with the commissioner’s board on May 5th in hopes they’re willing to reduce or eliminate the amount.
I finally got a breakdown on the liens. My father was apparently some kind of hoarder that the county had dealt with off and on for 20 years. They fined him a grand total of $53,000, of which $15,000 had been repaid after the tax sale. Only $2500 is hard cost reimbursement...stuff like court costs, fees, sending code enforcement folks out to inspect, etc. All the rest of it is daily fines. Doesn’t this seem excessive and confiscatory? I mean,, I get fining someone for noncompliance, but to let those fines run in perpetuity seems ridiculous. I looked up the property; it’s valued at around $55,000. It was sold for under $30,000. Yes, $50,000 worth of fines for a $55,000 piece of property lol. What sense does that? Why isn’t there a limit, then proceed to seizure?
What’s even more ridiculous is the guy is dead. The county administrator said she won’t reduce the amounts, which is why I had to request appeal to the board. What kind of sense does it make to pass on noncompliance fines in an inheritance? These aren’t costs incurred. It needlessly attacks someone who had nothing to do with any of it. What’s really effed up is these liens didn’t come up during the probate process. Maybe that’s on the probate attorney? IDK
Anyways, I don’t expect relief. When government wants money, they get it. It’s been almost a year and this whole experience has been a shitshow. But the county has a Hell of a gig. I read through a lot of other code enforcements and they’re all the same...$1K-$2K in hard costs, then $50K-$60K In arbitrary daily fines. WTF
Has anyone had any experience with this crap?
Anyway, I completed the probate process and was titled the house. It had no mortgage. I had an inspection done and it needs a new roof, new HVAC system and a lot of other smaller repairs. The estimated repairs are about $35,000, so I decided to sell it off. The expense required to keep it is not worth it IMO. It’s not a home I would live in, so renting it would be my only option. So, I got a investor buyer almost immediately.
Turns out the house has liens on it from Escambia County. It took an incredible amount of effort to get the commissioner’s office to respond to me, but the liens were from another property my father had owned (it was sold off in a tax sale years before his death). First, the amounts totaled $10,000. Then, I was told by the district 5 manager the amount was $20,000. I was pissed, but I agreed to pay it just to hurry up and get rid of the house and was transferred to another person who handled payment. She said the amount was $38,000. After going round and round with these goons, I requested an appeal. I have a hearing with the commissioner’s board on May 5th in hopes they’re willing to reduce or eliminate the amount.
I finally got a breakdown on the liens. My father was apparently some kind of hoarder that the county had dealt with off and on for 20 years. They fined him a grand total of $53,000, of which $15,000 had been repaid after the tax sale. Only $2500 is hard cost reimbursement...stuff like court costs, fees, sending code enforcement folks out to inspect, etc. All the rest of it is daily fines. Doesn’t this seem excessive and confiscatory? I mean,, I get fining someone for noncompliance, but to let those fines run in perpetuity seems ridiculous. I looked up the property; it’s valued at around $55,000. It was sold for under $30,000. Yes, $50,000 worth of fines for a $55,000 piece of property lol. What sense does that? Why isn’t there a limit, then proceed to seizure?
What’s even more ridiculous is the guy is dead. The county administrator said she won’t reduce the amounts, which is why I had to request appeal to the board. What kind of sense does it make to pass on noncompliance fines in an inheritance? These aren’t costs incurred. It needlessly attacks someone who had nothing to do with any of it. What’s really effed up is these liens didn’t come up during the probate process. Maybe that’s on the probate attorney? IDK
Anyways, I don’t expect relief. When government wants money, they get it. It’s been almost a year and this whole experience has been a shitshow. But the county has a Hell of a gig. I read through a lot of other code enforcements and they’re all the same...$1K-$2K in hard costs, then $50K-$60K In arbitrary daily fines. WTF
Has anyone had any experience with this crap?
3
Posted on 4/30/20 at 8:04 am to The Quiet One
We went through this on a tax deed property we bought in FL recently. County began fining us after we bought the property with no notice. They somehow didn't fine the previous owners even though the lot/property was in the same terrible shape for many years.
Anyways, total fines reached $30-$40k. My partner and I were busy with military obligations and they completely fricked up the appeal hearing notice by sending it like a week before the actual hearing.
I began calling the county attorney's office daily. Finally got the head attorney's email from the FL bar's website. Sent her an email explaining what happened, how the notice was fricked up, and how the fines are completely disproportionate to the property value. Explained how we are just trying to tear down and build a new house to increase the value of the neighborhood and bring more $ into the county's pockets (new tenants + property tax).
Basically their main goal is to make every lots productive so that they receive their property taxes. I would reach out to the media, county commissioners (go in person next time they have a public meeting and tell them what happened), reach out to the code enforcement person's boss, and reach out to the head county attorney.
They have hardship hearings they hold off and on where they significantly reduce code violations. We got ours dropped from $30-$40k to I think $1,500.
Anyways, total fines reached $30-$40k. My partner and I were busy with military obligations and they completely fricked up the appeal hearing notice by sending it like a week before the actual hearing.
I began calling the county attorney's office daily. Finally got the head attorney's email from the FL bar's website. Sent her an email explaining what happened, how the notice was fricked up, and how the fines are completely disproportionate to the property value. Explained how we are just trying to tear down and build a new house to increase the value of the neighborhood and bring more $ into the county's pockets (new tenants + property tax).
Basically their main goal is to make every lots productive so that they receive their property taxes. I would reach out to the media, county commissioners (go in person next time they have a public meeting and tell them what happened), reach out to the code enforcement person's boss, and reach out to the head county attorney.
They have hardship hearings they hold off and on where they significantly reduce code violations. We got ours dropped from $30-$40k to I think $1,500.
This post was edited on 4/30/20 at 8:04 am
Posted on 4/30/20 at 8:06 am to The Quiet One
Are you planning on paying? Because you shouldn’t? I’m not a lawyer but I’m fairly certain if his estate is worth less than what he owes then then that can’t be passed on to an heir.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 8:09 am to baldona
quote:
estate is worth less than what he owes then then that can’t be passed on to an heir.
He has no obligation to pay. But they will take the property.
Probate lawyer didn't screw anything up -- although I'm surprised you didn't receive some sort of notice from the county during the process that there were outstanding fines.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 8:12 am to baldona
quote:
Are you planning on paying? Because you shouldn’t? I’m not a lawyer but I’m fairly certain if his estate is worth less than what he owes then then that can’t be passed on to an heir.
Per OP, the probate/estate closed, so this is something that came up during the closing title search.
Is a title search supposed to be done during probate? If so, could be e&o on the probate attorney if you have damages.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 8:19 am to The Quiet One
Sorry you are going through this, hope the appeal process can bring some relief.
The problem is, if the county just puts a $2,500 lien on the property, 1) It's not worth it for them to do so, which means 2) Property owners will tell the county to pound sand, and will become non-compliant. Why spend $10,000 on property repairs if you are only going to be fined $2,500 and that's it? Especially if you are the type of person who doesn't care about the house's condition.
All of those fees and charges are ways to get your attention.
You said you had no connection with him. Have you been repaid all your costs? If so, why not just tell the county to take the house?
The problem is, if the county just puts a $2,500 lien on the property, 1) It's not worth it for them to do so, which means 2) Property owners will tell the county to pound sand, and will become non-compliant. Why spend $10,000 on property repairs if you are only going to be fined $2,500 and that's it? Especially if you are the type of person who doesn't care about the house's condition.
All of those fees and charges are ways to get your attention.
You said you had no connection with him. Have you been repaid all your costs? If so, why not just tell the county to take the house?
Posted on 4/30/20 at 8:31 am to 632627
quote:
Is a title search supposed to be done during probate?
No. Usually good practice, but not done very often.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 9:02 am to LSUFanHouston
I’ll answer all posts to this point here:
1. Liens did not show up in probate (which was 7 months long). It showed up in the title check as we began the closing process.
2. The liens are from a different property, then were transferred to THIS property presumably after my father bought it in 2012. I have no control over the “offending” property. It was sold off years ago.
3. According to documents sent to me from the county code enforcement division, the offending property is up to code and has been for several years.
4. The process to request relief from code enforcement liens is to contact the special magistrate, appeal to county administrator, then appeal to the commissioner’s board. One could then sue the county, but unless the property is very valuable, it’s most likely not worth the legal fees.
5. I’ve read dozens of board minutes. Sometimes they deny relief; sometimes they grant relief of the fines, but keep the hard costs. It seems arbitrary because the board’s reasoning is rarely recorded for public consumption. There is hope. One I read, the board reduced a lien from $62K to $5K. I would think an extraordinary circumstance like this would favor that kind of judgement. Now, if I was the offending person, they probably wouldn’t give me any relief. At least, that’s my common sense view of it. I just hope I break even after this is all said and done. Been almost a year dealing with this 2,000 miles away. It’s an albatross at this point.
6. Aside from everything else, I’m honestly surprised people are fined up to $250-$500/day and then that fine is left to roll over for months, even years. Common sense would dictate a cutoff based on property value or something. I understand fining people, but damn, my case is really small potatoes compared to others I’ve read. Most of these are likely on low income violators; $50K might as well be $50M when it’s on a dude who’s property is barely worth the liens against it. Seems predatory IMO.
1. Liens did not show up in probate (which was 7 months long). It showed up in the title check as we began the closing process.
2. The liens are from a different property, then were transferred to THIS property presumably after my father bought it in 2012. I have no control over the “offending” property. It was sold off years ago.
3. According to documents sent to me from the county code enforcement division, the offending property is up to code and has been for several years.
4. The process to request relief from code enforcement liens is to contact the special magistrate, appeal to county administrator, then appeal to the commissioner’s board. One could then sue the county, but unless the property is very valuable, it’s most likely not worth the legal fees.
5. I’ve read dozens of board minutes. Sometimes they deny relief; sometimes they grant relief of the fines, but keep the hard costs. It seems arbitrary because the board’s reasoning is rarely recorded for public consumption. There is hope. One I read, the board reduced a lien from $62K to $5K. I would think an extraordinary circumstance like this would favor that kind of judgement. Now, if I was the offending person, they probably wouldn’t give me any relief. At least, that’s my common sense view of it. I just hope I break even after this is all said and done. Been almost a year dealing with this 2,000 miles away. It’s an albatross at this point.
6. Aside from everything else, I’m honestly surprised people are fined up to $250-$500/day and then that fine is left to roll over for months, even years. Common sense would dictate a cutoff based on property value or something. I understand fining people, but damn, my case is really small potatoes compared to others I’ve read. Most of these are likely on low income violators; $50K might as well be $50M when it’s on a dude who’s property is barely worth the liens against it. Seems predatory IMO.
Posted on 4/30/20 at 9:16 am to The Quiet One
I'm telling you. Raise hell. Head county attorney. Head code enforcement. Contact all of the city/county board members.
We're both attorneys so we sued the county, but contacting everyone was way more effective.
We're both attorneys so we sued the county, but contacting everyone was way more effective.
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