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Message
re: Top 200 Players (CFN) - Lafell ranked 110...Geez
Posted on 8/10/09 at 11:11 pm to southdeep
Posted on 8/10/09 at 11:11 pm to southdeep
quote:
A valid point I was hoping you'd raise. Props.
Believe it or not, I know what I'm talking about. I always make the Jones-Lafell argument for two reasons. First, it sends Bama fans into a frenzy and that's always fun to watch. Second, while Jones will probably go down as one of the better receivers ever in the SEC, nothing is set in stone. All you can really go on is what has actually happened. I brought it up earlier; Justin Vincent was set to be all-world after his freshman year and, by his senior season, he wasn't even a starter. There are no guarantees.
0
Posted on 8/10/09 at 11:13 pm to southdeep
quote:Well, it took Lafell his second year of actually playing football to equal what Jones did as a Freshman.
Look again at what I compared. I compared Jones' first year in his program to LaFell's first 3 years at LSU. Also no apples to apples. More like grapes to pineapples. But not what you suggested either.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 12:53 am to southdeep
quote:There is a divergence occurring here. The list was best players in college in 2009. Draft prospects is not the same thing (the list actually specifically says it has nothing to do with NFL potential). NFL teams chose Javon Walker and Ashley Lelie ahead of Josh Reed, but Reed was the far, FAR better WR in college.
Your objectivity, while possibly objective, is worthless.
The NFL doesn't draft based on stats. Stats don't tell the whole story on who has a chance to succeed in the NFL.
LaFell did more in the college game last year than Jones did (63 catches, 929 yards, 8 TDs vs. 58 catches, 924 yards, 4 TDs), and he did it sharing more catches with his fellow receivers (143 vs. 137), with shakier QB play (117.4 vs. 124.12 efficiency), and less offensive opportunities (886 plays vs. 902 plays). By every conceivably rational measure, LaFell was a better college WR than Jones last year. Obviously that could change, but the scoreboard doesn't distinguish between freshmen and seniors; until he actually does it on the field, Jones has not surpassed LaFell.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 1:00 am to southdeep
quote:No, objectively, LaFell did more in his one season as the #1 receiver than Jones did in his one season as the #1 receiver. Chris Leak had more stats as a freshman than JaMarcus Russell did; did that mean he was better than JaMarcus or that he was just in a different situation that made it easier to put up stats his first year?
Objectively, LaFell took 4 years in the program to produce at the level Jones did in just his first year
Or to put it another way: based on their performances as freshmen who was the better RB, Justin Vincent or Joe Addai?
Posted on 8/11/09 at 1:10 am to southdeep
quote:So there's just no way possible that Julio could never have a season as good as LaFell's last year or possibly this year? I mean, if he has 4 years as good as his first year, and LaFell has a better year this year than last year, are you still going to argue that Jones was better than LaFell even though he would have never produced a season as good as LaFell's top two?
He's just not as good as Julio.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 5:39 am to southdeep
quote:
Look again at what I compared. I compared Jones' first year in his program to LaFell's first 3 years at LSU. Also no apples to apples. More like grapes to pineapples. But not what you suggested either.
Whatever. Your comparison really isn't valid. There are just too many different circumstances that can go into the discussion, to really make a comparison of the stats of one receiver to another receiver, even more so on different teams, where personnel, play calling, and system can come into play. I don't see the point of comparing "grapes" to "pineapples".
In terms of physical tools, Julio Jones wins without a doubt. He's strong, fast, and can leap better than Lafell. In terms of route running, Lafell is much better, hands down. Will Jones develop route running skills? maybe...maybe not. But to use stats to compare two players in two different circumstances is pretty ridiculous. Saying Julio Jones is without a doubt better than Lafell is ridiculous. He has the tools, but who knows if he will ever develop the route running skills to be a truly great receiver.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 6:40 am to tfl41
quote:
No way in hell Taylor Mays is the second rated player in college football!
1. He MIGHT be the 2nd best player on his team.
2. He's possibly the 2nd best safety in the nation, but it's not even close to Eric Berry.
Eric Berry
2nd best safety
ETA: Just actually read the list. Absolutely horrid. I don't even care about the lack of LSU players, but some of the guys they have in the top 50 or so is just stunning.
This post was edited on 8/11/09 at 6:46 am
Posted on 8/11/09 at 7:37 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Of course, you'd have to weigh the fact that a Big 12 or a Pac 12 receiver is playing against simple defenses and, thus, his stats are going to benefit.
Yes, because we all know that NO SEC teams get half a hundred hung on 'em.
Oh wait...
Posted on 8/11/09 at 7:37 am to King Joey
quote:
By every conceivably rational measure, LaFell was a better college WR than Jones last year.
Please elaborate. Because, while you have made the valid argument that LaFell's slightly-better-than-Jones' stats last year are even more impressive considering the state of the LSU offense, I fail to see how that statistical comparison translates into: "By every conceivably rational measure, LaFell was a better college WR than Jones last year."
Posted on 8/11/09 at 7:47 am to southdeep
quote:I was wrong. There is one conceivably rational measure in which Jones was superior to LaFell, and that was yards per reception (15.9 vs. 14.7). But LaFell led in every other measure: catches, yards and touchdowns. And examing the relevant secondary factors of distribution of catches to other receivers, effectiveness of the QBs and number of plays, all of them favored Jones. Thus, since he had every factor in his favor and still could not match LaFell in 3 of the 4 relevant measures (and the 3 most important, imo), the facts suggest that by almost every conceivably rational measure, LaFell was a better college WR than Jones last year.
Because, while you have made the valid argument that LaFell's slightly-better-than-Jones' stats last year are even more impressive considering the state of the LSU offense, I fail to see how that statistical comparison translates into: "By every conceivably rational measure, LaFell was a better college WR than Jones last year."
I guess what I should be asking is, what rational measure is there (besides the aforementioned yards per catch) that suggests otherwise?
Posted on 8/11/09 at 8:32 am to King Joey
quote:
since he had every factor in his favor
How about looking at it this way instead -
1. Jones was a true freshman. This inexperience does not work out in his favor.
2. Defenses keyed in on him because (a) they knew his freakish ability and (b) as you stated, he was their only good option. This does not work out in his favor. On the other hand LaFell had Byrd (an equally imposing threat) to distract the defenders.
I don't disagree that LaFell's production was better than Jones. My position is simply that if I was ranking WRs, both would be in the top 5, but Julio would be above LaFell.
This post was edited on 8/11/09 at 8:35 am
Posted on 8/11/09 at 8:49 am to lsubkd
quote:
Top 200 Players (CFN)
This is a media suck off list.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 8:57 am to lsubkd
look at that list, it is obvious that those guys are LSU hater!! frick that list
Posted on 8/11/09 at 9:40 am to cardee2003
CFN has always sucked, they are just now starting to suck enough for more folks to feel it.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 10:09 am to RelocatedPelican
Jones > Lafell hands down.
Posted on 8/11/09 at 11:21 am to brdcstr
quote:
Yes, because we all know that NO SEC teams get half a hundred hung on 'em.
or almost three-quarters of a hundred.
This post was edited on 8/11/09 at 11:22 am
Posted on 8/11/09 at 12:52 pm to southdeep
quote:
I don't disagree that LaFell's production was better than Jones. My position is simply that if I was ranking WRs, both would be in the top 5, but Julio would be above LaFell.
Give it up southdip...you got owned.
Thank God for posters like King_Joey, who can actually bring logic to the Interweb.
All Hail King_Joey!
Posted on 8/11/09 at 1:07 pm to King Joey
quote:
I guess what I should be asking is, what rational measure is there (besides the aforementioned yards per catch) that suggests otherwise?
Jones plays for Bama, and was a recruit of The Great Saban....that means he's obviously better regardless of actual offensive production.
This post was edited on 8/11/09 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 8/11/09 at 1:20 pm to Chimlim
Just throwing in MY opinion...if I was drafting tomrrow for an NFL team, I'd take Jones, before Green and Green before Lafell.
Yes, I'm an LSU fan and alum.
Yes, I'm an LSU fan and alum.
Posted on 8/12/09 at 12:10 pm to southdeep
quote:Inexperience is irrelevant to measuring who performed better. That's like giving LaFell a break because he's slower. It may be a factor in explaining why he performed the way he performed, but it is not a factor in measuring how he performed.
1. Jones was a true freshman. This inexperience does not work out in his favor.
quote:There's nothing wrong with that opinion. But the point is that it is pure speculation. There is absolutely nothing that either of them have done on the field (except for the yards per catch) that indicates Jones is better than LaFell. Of course, the fact that it is speculation does not make it wrong, it just makes it unproven and not supported by objective evidence. And since the opposite opinion, that LaFell is better than Jones, is supported by objective evidence from what they have both done on the field in games, it is rather irrational to label it as silly or unreasonable.
I don't disagree that LaFell's production was better than Jones. My position is simply that if I was ranking WRs, both would be in the top 5, but Julio would be above LaFell.
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