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re: Reality Check: LSU has never been an elite SEC program
Posted on 10/26/10 at 12:56 pm to pdxlsufan
Posted on 10/26/10 at 12:56 pm to pdxlsufan
I think this argument had a lot more moving parts than you realized when you started the thread.
You constantly shift from taking an "overall SEC" view to a "vs. LSU" view and it's killed any argument you may have had.
Over time, if there is one elite, you'd have to pick Bama. If you open it up to 2 or 3, then you run into all kinds of problems, and by many measures, UF wouldn't be included there.
Over a 73 year span, you proclaim UF's eliteness based on a ten year time period, without any qualification.
quote:Whether or not LSU dominates them has no bearing on their eliteness in the overall SEC. They could have beaten us every year and still not been "elite".
And even when they were mediocre in the 80s, as another poster noted, LSU couldn't dominate Florida.
You constantly shift from taking an "overall SEC" view to a "vs. LSU" view and it's killed any argument you may have had.
Over time, if there is one elite, you'd have to pick Bama. If you open it up to 2 or 3, then you run into all kinds of problems, and by many measures, UF wouldn't be included there.
Over a 73 year span, you proclaim UF's eliteness based on a ten year time period, without any qualification.
quote:Of course we can, we just don't like half-assed arguments about who should and shouldn't be considered "elite".
LSU fans can't admit that anyone is better than us.
0
Posted on 10/26/10 at 12:58 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:Nor does 10 years out of 70 make UF elite.
Four years out of one decade does not make LSU elite.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 1:00 pm to pdxlsufan
Posted on 10/26/10 at 1:37 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:
Reality Check: LSU has never been an elite SEC program
NCAA Division I Football
Statistic...............LSU...Rank
Total # of Wins......718....12th
Total Win Pct.........642....14th
Stadium Capacity..92400..8th
1st Game Played...1893....NA
Posted on 10/26/10 at 1:47 pm to USMCTiger03
LSU had a great run in the mid 2000s, but unlike Florida's success in the 2000s we have NOTHING to tie it back to. Our 5 year spurt in the mid 2000s is an anomaly for a team that used to be happy with 8 or 9 wins in the regular season and a decent bowl game. We have never dominated the entire conference the way that Florida has. If we had, then why all the insecurity over Miles? We should be celebrating him as the coach that cemented our elite status.
Florida's resume
================
1991 SEC Champs, final rank #7, 10-2 (7-0 SEC)
1992 SEC East Champs - lost to Bama in SECCG, final rank #10, 9-4 (6-3 SEC)
1993 SEC Champs, final rank #5, 11-2 (8-1 SEC)
1994 SEC Champs, final rank #7, 10-2-1 (8-1 SEC)
1995 SEC Champs, final rank #2, 12-1 (9-0 SEC)
1996 SEC Champs, National Champs, 12-1 (9-0 SEC)
1997 Final ranking #4, 10-2 (6-2 SEC)
1998 Final ranking #5, 10-2 (7-1 SEC)
1999 SEC East Champs - lost to Bama in SECCG, final rank #12, 9-4 (7-2 SEC)
2000 SEC Champs, final rank #10, 10-3 (8-1 SEC)
2001 Final rank #3, 10-2 (6-2 SEC)
2002-2004 The Ron Zook Era
2005 Final rank #12, 9-3 (5-3 SEC)
2006 SEC Champs, National Champs, 13-1 (8-1 SEC)
2007 Final rank #13, 9-4 (5-3 SEC)
2008 SEC Champs, National Champs, 13-1 (8-1 SEC)
2009 SEC East Champs, lost to Bama in SECCG, Final Rank #3, 13-1 (8-1 SEC)
With the exception of the 3 years Ron Zook was at the helm, Florida has finished every year in the Top 15. 10 out of 11 years in the top 10 from 1991 to 2001. 8 conference titles and 10 divisional titles in 20 years. 3 seasons where no one in the SEC beat them (something LSU hasn't done since 1959) and 8 one loss seasons in conference play. LSU has had one season since 1990 where we lost 1 or fewer regular season conference games: 2003. Florida has had 11 such seasons since 1990.
Florida's resume
================
1991 SEC Champs, final rank #7, 10-2 (7-0 SEC)
1992 SEC East Champs - lost to Bama in SECCG, final rank #10, 9-4 (6-3 SEC)
1993 SEC Champs, final rank #5, 11-2 (8-1 SEC)
1994 SEC Champs, final rank #7, 10-2-1 (8-1 SEC)
1995 SEC Champs, final rank #2, 12-1 (9-0 SEC)
1996 SEC Champs, National Champs, 12-1 (9-0 SEC)
1997 Final ranking #4, 10-2 (6-2 SEC)
1998 Final ranking #5, 10-2 (7-1 SEC)
1999 SEC East Champs - lost to Bama in SECCG, final rank #12, 9-4 (7-2 SEC)
2000 SEC Champs, final rank #10, 10-3 (8-1 SEC)
2001 Final rank #3, 10-2 (6-2 SEC)
2002-2004 The Ron Zook Era
2005 Final rank #12, 9-3 (5-3 SEC)
2006 SEC Champs, National Champs, 13-1 (8-1 SEC)
2007 Final rank #13, 9-4 (5-3 SEC)
2008 SEC Champs, National Champs, 13-1 (8-1 SEC)
2009 SEC East Champs, lost to Bama in SECCG, Final Rank #3, 13-1 (8-1 SEC)
With the exception of the 3 years Ron Zook was at the helm, Florida has finished every year in the Top 15. 10 out of 11 years in the top 10 from 1991 to 2001. 8 conference titles and 10 divisional titles in 20 years. 3 seasons where no one in the SEC beat them (something LSU hasn't done since 1959) and 8 one loss seasons in conference play. LSU has had one season since 1990 where we lost 1 or fewer regular season conference games: 2003. Florida has had 11 such seasons since 1990.
This post was edited on 10/26/10 at 2:03 pm
Posted on 10/26/10 at 1:49 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
Stadium Capacity..92400..8th
If having the awesomest stadium or the best band were all that we needed to be considered elite, we would have been elite a LONG time ago.
Posted on 10/26/10 at 2:01 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:
NCAA Division I Football
Statistic...............LSU...Rank
Total # of Wins......718....12th (Florida is 23rd)
Total Win Pct.........642....14th (Florida is 15th)
Stadium Capacity..92400..8th (Florida is 9th)
1st Game Played...1893....NA (Florida was 1906)
Posted on 10/27/10 at 12:22 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:
The problem many LSU fans have is that they think we should be an elite SEC team but can't accept that even under Nicky Saban we never have been an elite team. We've been good, even great, but never elite. I don't know that we ever will be.
pdxlsufan, based on your premise that LSU has never and likely never will be an elite team, what should LSU do about LM?
LM is one of the top 10 highest paid coaches in college football.
the rest of the staff is also paid (as a group) in that category.
based on your premise that LSU is historically a 8 or 9-win team, good, but not great, certainly not elite. isn't it crazy to pay coaches this amount of money? shouldn't they dump those salaries and get a mid-level coach and accept mediocrity? is that your suggestion?
Posted on 10/27/10 at 12:40 pm to Fast Times @ LSU
quote:
pdxlsufan, based on your premise that LSU has never and likely never will be an elite team, what should LSU do about LM?
Actually, I don't know that and I never said that we'll never be an elite team. We have the potential (which even most of the national media would agree with) but we haven't stayed at that level long enough yet. It could happen with Miles or it could happen with the next coach. All I said was that it hasn't happened yet. We were at that level in the late 50s and early 60s. We were at that level in the mid 2000s. If we get back to that level in the 2010s, add a crystal football to our trophy case and a few more SEC titles then we'll have a pretty damn good claim to being an elite team.
As to what to do about Les Miles, I think we should let this season play out. Be patient. 11-1 is unlikely. 9-3 is likely. But we don't know yet, so it's best to wait and see and act once the regular season has run its course.
But Alleva has already set an expectation for what happens if we go 9-3 again:
quote:
In a letter to season ticket holders, Alleva said that LSU's 9-4 record in 2009 was a “nice season.” But he followed that up by saying that “being 'nice' is not our annual goal. We intend to contend for—and win—championships at LSU.” Consider that a public warning to Coach Miles.
LINK
Translation: If we have another "nice" season, someone on the coaching staff will have to get axed. That someone is highly likely to be Crowton. If Miles refuses, it will be his head on the chopping block in 2011. Because Alleva has already served public notice to the fan base and if he doesn't act, he's going to generate a far bigger shitstorm that anything we've seen so far.
And don't think Crowton already knows that anything less than 10 wins come January and he's out of a job.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 1:19 pm to pdxlsufan
We beat Bama 7 out of the last ten years, think that is a pretty good record for a decade, and I think we actually won 5 in a row during these years
Posted on 10/27/10 at 1:36 pm to PMV124
quote:
We beat Bama 7 out of the last ten years
Let's review those 10 seasons from Bama's perspective:
2000: 3-8 (lost to LSU)
2001: 7-5 (lost to LSU)
2002: 10-3 (beat LSU 31-0)
2003: 4-9 (lost to LSU)
2004: 6-6 (lost to LSU)
2005: 10-2 (lost to LSU)
2006: 6-7 (lost to LSU)
2007: 7-6 (lost to LSU)
2008: 12-2 (beat LSU)
2009: 14-0 (beat LSU)
All but one year (2005), when LSU beat Bama they were mediocre or just downright awful.
So let's be fair. For much of the 2000s, a LOT of teams beat Bama. LSU's wins over Bama in the 2000s aren't as special as we like to make them out to be.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 3:07 pm to pdxlsufan
not tyring to make them out to be anyting, just the facts. I'll take 7 out of ten every decade.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 3:58 pm to PMV124
quote:
Actually, I don't know that and I never said that we'll never be an elite team.
This is what you said….
quote:
The problem many LSU fans have is that they think we should be an elite SEC team but can't accept that even under Nicky Saban we never have been an elite team. We've been good, even great, but never elite. I don't know that we ever will be.
Joe Alleva says 9 wins is not enough. If we win 9 games, you say Crowton gets fired.
We are paying elite salary for the head man and his staff. My question remains, if we never have been or never will be an elite team, why pay elite salaries?
You said we have NEVER been an elite team.
You also said that you didn’t know that we would EVER be an elite team.
Why pay an elite price tag for coaching?
Should LSU continue to pay an elite price tag?
This post was edited on 10/27/10 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 10/27/10 at 4:14 pm to Fast Times @ LSU
quote:
We are paying elite salary for the head man and his staff. My question remains, if we never have been or never will be an elite team, why pay elite salaries?
We're paying Miles an elite salary because he were desperate to keep Michigan from taking him just before the SEC Championship in 2007. Prior to that, Miles was making $1.8 million. For reference, Saban's last contract at LSU paid him $2.3 million, the highest paid coach in the land at the time and Miles' last contract at Oklahoma State would have paid him $1.5 million a year. In other words, it took at least $1.5 million/year to lure Miles from OK State and the Skipper didn't pay a lot more than that. So we rewarded him for 2 3/4 very good seasons and banked on him delivering the national title in 2007. He did. But since then, we haven't gotten our money's worth. That's the chance you take when you offer a new contract. Miles wouldn't be making the salary he is if not for 2005-2007 and the fact that Michigan came calling when they did. LSU had to make a move so we did.
From the Detroit Free Press on 12/01/07, the day of the 2007 SECCG:
quote:
Bertman, though, had promised Wednesday that the school would make Miles a substantial contract offer to remain in Baton Rouge, La.
Miles and athletic director Bill Martin, granted permission from LSU to talk with Miles, were expected to meet early next week.
Before that meeting could take place, LSU apparently presented an offer that Miles could not refuse and that U-M could not or declined to match.
...
Miles' salary at LSU has been $1.8 million, but his contract called for an automatic raise because the Tigers won 10 games this season. Fifth-ranked LSU (10-2) plays No..14 Tennessee (9-3) in Atlanta this afternoon for the SEC championship.
If Chizik wins a title this year, you can bet the War Chickunz will lock him in for big money too. The highest paid coaches in the SEC are the ones who brought home a crystal football or two.
This post was edited on 10/27/10 at 4:28 pm
Posted on 10/27/10 at 4:18 pm to pdxlsufan
Its hard to even count the 2007 BCSC with two losses. Bascially they had to give it to someone when no one really deserved it that year. 
Posted on 10/27/10 at 4:36 pm to Fast Times @ LSU
quote:
You also said that you didn’t know that we would EVER be an elite team.
Right. As in I'm not a soothsayer. I can't predict the future. If I could, I'd be filthy loaded rich from betting on sports. I'm just telling you that in 100+ years of LSU football, we've had two great periods... the late 50s and early 60s and the mid 2000s. When those periods occur once every decade or two instead of once every 50 years, then LSU will have a much better claim to calling ourselves an elite program. As of today, it's a weak claim at best. In the 2010s that may change. We could win a couple more crystal footballs and multiple SEC titles. Like every fan, I hope we do. I hope we win like Florida did in the 1990s. But based on our history, I wouldn't bet on it. So I choose not to bet at all. Because as we all learned in "Everybody's All American", you never, ever bet against LSU.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 4:38 pm to pdxlsufan
From purely a historical perspective, it's pretty much Alabama alone at the top, with LSU, Tenn, Georgia, and Florida probably bunched at the next tier.
Florida was pretty much an SEC doormat for a long time, but vaulted to the second tier in the past 20-25 years. They took the second tier spot previously held by Ole Miss.
Auburn's probably the next closest team to second tier, but they have no modern NC's.
Florida was pretty much an SEC doormat for a long time, but vaulted to the second tier in the past 20-25 years. They took the second tier spot previously held by Ole Miss.
Auburn's probably the next closest team to second tier, but they have no modern NC's.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 4:46 pm to Woodreaux
quote:
2 national championships, 4 BCS bowl total, 4 SEC west titles, 10 bowl berths, 4 top 5 finishes in 10 years and we arent elite?
+1
we had a rough period in the 90's...every school has it, but for the last 10 years...not very many schools can match our records....
and a lot had to do with the unfortunate plane crash accident.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 5:01 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Florida was pretty much an SEC doormat for a long time, but vaulted to the second tier in the past 20-25 years. They took the second tier spot previously held by Ole Miss
I wouldn't say Florida was a doormat (see our decade by decade record against them) but I'll agree they weren't even 2nd tier prior to 1990.
From 1990 onwards, though, in most years they took most of the SEC behind the woodshed. I get their mediocrity prior to 1990, but they weren't merely 2nd tier in the 90s or the last few seasons. The whole SEC hates them for a reason and it's not merely because Tebow is a Bible thumping virgin.
Posted on 10/27/10 at 5:05 pm to pdxlsufan
quote:
I get their mediocrity prior to 1990, but they weren't merely 2nd tier in the 90s or the last few seasons
Right. Their lack of significant history before then puts them second tier overall.
Ole Miss was second tier, but they've become so irrelevant in recent history you can no longer argue it with a straight face.
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