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Message
re: Question about the bias of SEC refs
Posted on 10/21/10 at 9:19 am to SNAKE
Posted on 10/21/10 at 9:19 am to SNAKE
quote:
A key official , I believe it was the replay official in both the Auburn game & the Bama game ,both lived in Bama with strong ties to each school ! In the case of the Auburn game, the official's daughter went to Auburn. When the spotlight was focused, it was easier to get some personal information on the refs. I'm sure because of the bad publicity and due to security reasons the SEC office is not going to put out a list of the names & addresses of the SEC officials.Do you think the SEC is going to help anyone (that's not in an official capacity)obtain the evidence that would expose the SEC's favoritism to the 2 Bama schools? Come on!Besides you are the one that disagrees w/the majority so why don't you get the proof to defend (according to NCAA) the 2 biggest cheaters in the SEC !
The SEC doesn't have to help anyone do anything. Put a reporter on it. The names are in the box score every week - it's not rocket science.
If by majority, you mean one or two assclowns, then perhaps so.
I don't have to provide any proof of anything - I'm not the one making the statements.
Someone says they all live in Birmingham, OK prove it - that info had to come from somewhere.
And I'm almost positive I haven't said a word about either of the schools you are tlaking about, let alone "defend" them.
0
Posted on 10/21/10 at 9:30 am to Tiger 1964
These numbers show the bias towards the two Bama schools even if it is a coincidence that they both have 466 fouls apiece. It is not the number that they have but, how much difference it is between what they do have and the others.
This is why they quit providing these numbers so that they can hide the fact that they are being biased. If it was not intentional then they would have never quit and it is enough to push for aninvestigation into why they quit providing and why there is so much of a disparity between those two schools and the others.
This is the totals so far this year and to me it shows thing are pretty much even as you look at them. But, between LSU and Auburn LSU is doing better than the Barners at this time. The thing to look for this weekend is the Ref's trying to make things even after this week and them taking up for Auburn vs LSU. Have not read the intire post just parts of it and hope this has not been shown yet if it has then this is my take on it.
PENALTIES G No. Yards Avg/G
1. Tennessee 6 33 207 34.5
2. S. Carolina 6 32 228 38.0
3. Miss. State 7 37 305 43.6
3. Alabama 7 41 305 43.6
5. Georgia 7 40 308 44.0
6. Ole Miss 6 33 287 47.8
7. Kentucky 7 42 347 49.6
8. Vanderbilt 6 37 306 51.0
9. Florida 7 52 375 53.6
9. LSU 7 48 375 53.6
11. Auburn 7 45 403 57.6
12. Arkansas 6 50 408 68.0
OPPONENT PENALTIES G No. Yards Avg/G
1. Arkansas 6 54 364 60.7
2. Kentucky 7 48 386 55.1
3. Miss. State 7 47 379 54.1
4. Tennessee 6 43 305 50.8
5. Florida 7 49 347 49.6
6. Alabama 7 41 328 46.9
7. Ole Miss 6 37 270 45.0
8. LSU 7 42 298 42.6
9. Auburn 7 32 285 40.7
10. S. Carolina 6 32 237 39.5
11. Georgia 7 32 224 32.0
12. Vanderbilt 6 20 169 28.2
Just something to look for this weekend but, do not let it become the main thing so that it does not cause you to not enjoy this game. I believe this game has the makings of one of if not the best game of this decade certainly of this year. So let's enjoy and may the best team win!
I SAY!
This is why they quit providing these numbers so that they can hide the fact that they are being biased. If it was not intentional then they would have never quit and it is enough to push for aninvestigation into why they quit providing and why there is so much of a disparity between those two schools and the others.
quote:
Tiger 1964
quote:
(9gams 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 Total
Aub 108 74 80 67 72 65 466
AL 121 77 70 74 78 46 466
FL 109 96 106 102 116 69 598
LSU 92 102 72 108 83 83 540
Tenn 95 94 85 87 64 52 477
FL, LSU, Tenn seem to have a similar, random pattern. Look what happens in 2003 and is contiuing through today. Auburn and AL drop 30-50 penalties a year compared to the year before. How can two schools in the same state both become and stay such great no-penalty teams in the same year and stay that way? It's not that we are getting penalized more(in a statistical sense); it's that Auburn and AL are getting penalized much less on a consistant basis. The refs are just not calling those two teams the way they are calling the others. Guess who was hired in late 2002...Mike Slive. That was a surprise for me. I was already to blame it on Redding, but he didn't arrive until 2006.
This is the totals so far this year and to me it shows thing are pretty much even as you look at them. But, between LSU and Auburn LSU is doing better than the Barners at this time. The thing to look for this weekend is the Ref's trying to make things even after this week and them taking up for Auburn vs LSU. Have not read the intire post just parts of it and hope this has not been shown yet if it has then this is my take on it.
PENALTIES G No. Yards Avg/G
1. Tennessee 6 33 207 34.5
2. S. Carolina 6 32 228 38.0
3. Miss. State 7 37 305 43.6
3. Alabama 7 41 305 43.6
5. Georgia 7 40 308 44.0
6. Ole Miss 6 33 287 47.8
7. Kentucky 7 42 347 49.6
8. Vanderbilt 6 37 306 51.0
9. Florida 7 52 375 53.6
9. LSU 7 48 375 53.6
11. Auburn 7 45 403 57.6
12. Arkansas 6 50 408 68.0
OPPONENT PENALTIES G No. Yards Avg/G
1. Arkansas 6 54 364 60.7
2. Kentucky 7 48 386 55.1
3. Miss. State 7 47 379 54.1
4. Tennessee 6 43 305 50.8
5. Florida 7 49 347 49.6
6. Alabama 7 41 328 46.9
7. Ole Miss 6 37 270 45.0
8. LSU 7 42 298 42.6
9. Auburn 7 32 285 40.7
10. S. Carolina 6 32 237 39.5
11. Georgia 7 32 224 32.0
12. Vanderbilt 6 20 169 28.2
Just something to look for this weekend but, do not let it become the main thing so that it does not cause you to not enjoy this game. I believe this game has the makings of one of if not the best game of this decade certainly of this year. So let's enjoy and may the best team win!
I SAY!
Posted on 10/21/10 at 9:36 am to CaseyMc2
So let me get this straight.
Are you saying that the SEC is hiding the information on how many fouls each team is penalized for now?
Are you saying that the SEC is hiding the information on how many fouls each team is penalized for now?
Posted on 10/21/10 at 11:15 am to Turbeauxdog
"It's not just the number, it's the timing as well and you can't look at that statistically. 04 the leaping call at au, 06 the ball tipped mugging call at au, 07 the pp no int call at ua. all game changers.
watch any other conference, the refs generally do not determine the outcome."
It's funny you mention this because the 2004 Alabama/LSU blown call was mentioned and completely glossed over and ignored. That was as blatant a no call and an extreme game changer if there ever was one. Alabama went from 1st and goal on the LSU 2 for a TD that would have put them up 11 points late in the 3rd quarter to an LSU 1st and 10 near midfield down by 4 instead. The LSU cb grabbed the Bama receiver, threw him to the ground while the ball was in the air, and then picked the pass off and returned it to midfield. The timing of that no call was 1,000 times worse than the missed Peterson interception which would have given the ball back to an LSU offense that was doing NOTHING that 2nd half. How about all the ridiculous calls (skipped passes called TDs, missed 12 men on the field, lame celebration flags in OT) that have gone against Alabama practically every time we play Arkansas?
I understand the complaints against Bama/Auburn, but at least pretend to be objective and acknowledge the times we do get screwed. It DOES happen.
watch any other conference, the refs generally do not determine the outcome."
It's funny you mention this because the 2004 Alabama/LSU blown call was mentioned and completely glossed over and ignored. That was as blatant a no call and an extreme game changer if there ever was one. Alabama went from 1st and goal on the LSU 2 for a TD that would have put them up 11 points late in the 3rd quarter to an LSU 1st and 10 near midfield down by 4 instead. The LSU cb grabbed the Bama receiver, threw him to the ground while the ball was in the air, and then picked the pass off and returned it to midfield. The timing of that no call was 1,000 times worse than the missed Peterson interception which would have given the ball back to an LSU offense that was doing NOTHING that 2nd half. How about all the ridiculous calls (skipped passes called TDs, missed 12 men on the field, lame celebration flags in OT) that have gone against Alabama practically every time we play Arkansas?
I understand the complaints against Bama/Auburn, but at least pretend to be objective and acknowledge the times we do get screwed. It DOES happen.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 11:16 am to Govt Tide
quote:
but at least pretend to be objective
The word "objective" is little known around the rant.
quote:
It DOES happen.
Not often enough!
Posted on 10/21/10 at 11:18 am to 62zip
quote:
So let me get this straight.
Are you saying that the SEC is hiding the information on how many fouls each team is penalized for now?
My favorite part of his post was how he ignored the analysis of variance that was performed on the first set of numbers that proved there was no difference whatsoever. But, frick it, let's not let facts get in the way.
This post was edited on 10/21/10 at 11:20 am
Posted on 10/21/10 at 12:05 pm to WikiTiger
Just to throw a little water on some of the wild accusations in the conspiracy theories here.
All 12 SEC schools now have HD replay - it is provided by XOS Digital, the same company that runs the SEC website and provides the downloadable game footage.
Not all SEC football officials live in Alabama. A large number of them actually live in the Atlanta area. I know that several live in the Fayetteville/Peachtree City area because my cousin knows them and at least one lives in his subdivision.
The reason conferences use regional officials is because it is a part time job. They, especially the black hats, are not paid well enough to make a living off of working football games. Imagine working late and then having to be at a 12:21 eastern time kickoff. Officials are typically in the stadium two hours prior to kickoff, so imagine how much more difficult that commute would be if you had to get from Chicago to Starkville, vs coming there from Atlanta or Birmingham.
There are three people in each replay booth. Only one, the replay official, can actually change the calls on the field. He is a member of the crew and is selected and assigned by the league office, just like every official on the field. For a more detailed description of replay booth personnel search my post history and you'll find it in a post on the SEC Rant.
The replay official, nor any other official selected and assigned by the league can be a boster of a school playing that day. But if there were truely bias officials, it would show up in other games. Say an official is a Bama fan. True he can't work Bama games where he could "give" them calls, but he could work games like UGA vs. Tenn and his bias could work against the Vols, but no one ever seems to claim that do they? It is always that a booster of a school playing is on the field or in the booth, and the SEC will not allow that.
Replay has to be held to the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" in overturning calls, because if it wasn't, you would have these exact same arguements. If you could not - via video evidence - tell if a fumble was coming out or not before the runner was down, and the officials on the field ruled no fumble and then the replay booth said it was a fumble and the other team gets possesion, that would explode just as many conspiracy theories. The call on the field has to be the basis of truth and evidence has to be overwhelming to override that.
All 12 SEC schools now have HD replay - it is provided by XOS Digital, the same company that runs the SEC website and provides the downloadable game footage.
Not all SEC football officials live in Alabama. A large number of them actually live in the Atlanta area. I know that several live in the Fayetteville/Peachtree City area because my cousin knows them and at least one lives in his subdivision.
The reason conferences use regional officials is because it is a part time job. They, especially the black hats, are not paid well enough to make a living off of working football games. Imagine working late and then having to be at a 12:21 eastern time kickoff. Officials are typically in the stadium two hours prior to kickoff, so imagine how much more difficult that commute would be if you had to get from Chicago to Starkville, vs coming there from Atlanta or Birmingham.
There are three people in each replay booth. Only one, the replay official, can actually change the calls on the field. He is a member of the crew and is selected and assigned by the league office, just like every official on the field. For a more detailed description of replay booth personnel search my post history and you'll find it in a post on the SEC Rant.
The replay official, nor any other official selected and assigned by the league can be a boster of a school playing that day. But if there were truely bias officials, it would show up in other games. Say an official is a Bama fan. True he can't work Bama games where he could "give" them calls, but he could work games like UGA vs. Tenn and his bias could work against the Vols, but no one ever seems to claim that do they? It is always that a booster of a school playing is on the field or in the booth, and the SEC will not allow that.
Replay has to be held to the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" in overturning calls, because if it wasn't, you would have these exact same arguements. If you could not - via video evidence - tell if a fumble was coming out or not before the runner was down, and the officials on the field ruled no fumble and then the replay booth said it was a fumble and the other team gets possesion, that would explode just as many conspiracy theories. The call on the field has to be the basis of truth and evidence has to be overwhelming to override that.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 12:40 pm to WikiTiger
I really can apppreicate what Wiki is trying to do. And reading what 62zip is saying---nevermind.
But Tell me Wiki, your a man of stats, numbers and measurables...
Are there things that satistical analyisis can not measure?
If so, is it plausible that the existance of random bias can escape the expert analysis (assuming you had all the data you so seeked)?
But Tell me Wiki, your a man of stats, numbers and measurables...
Are there things that satistical analyisis can not measure?
If so, is it plausible that the existance of random bias can escape the expert analysis (assuming you had all the data you so seeked)?
This post was edited on 10/21/10 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 10/21/10 at 12:42 pm to PJinAtl
So if paul finebaum were to become a replay official, he could work for Alabama seeing as he is a Graduate of Tenn?
Posted on 10/21/10 at 12:43 pm to SenseiBuddy
quote:
Are there things that satistical analyisis can not measure?
Sure.
quote:
If so, is it plausible that the existance of random bias can escape the expert analysis (assuming you had all the data you so seeked)?
Perhaps.
My whole point in this thread has been that there is no bias for or against any school.
I wholeheartedly agree with the posters who said that the SEC refs are inept and simply do a poor job. But inept officiating exists in every sport, in every league, at every level.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 1:06 pm to SenseiBuddy
quote:In theory, I believe so.
So if paul finebaum were to become a replay official, he could work for Alabama seeing as he is a Graduate of Tenn?
But that is a bit of an extreme/absurd example. These officials are vetted and reviewed over and over after every game. Yes they may have some inner bias but much like those people who sit on juries across America each and every day deciding on things much much much more important than a fumble or a pass interference they have been judged by those in power to be able to put aside those biases and make fair decisions.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 1:34 pm to PJinAtl
quote:
Not all SEC football officials live in Alabama. A large number of them actually live in the Atlanta area. I know that several live in the Fayetteville/Peachtree City area because my cousin knows them and at least one lives in his subdivision.
Believe it or not, some of them even live in Louisiana, as hard as that may be to believe.
I keep hearing they all live in Birmingham, but no one ever seems to be able to provide a roster.
ETA: Of course all the "where they live" stuff is stupid anyhow. If I grow up here and go to LSU and then move to Atlanta for my job and happen to call for the SEC, that means I shouldn't be able to work, say a Georgia-Mississippi State game for example?
This post was edited on 10/21/10 at 1:46 pm
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:07 pm to 62zip
N
No! Iam saying that is what the SEC is saying by not leaving the stats on the website so that they can be accessable. Why are they hidding those numbers and also why are they hidding the Names of the ref's and where they are from. I am not advocating in giving their personal information add. phone, and such but just the info that will let everyone know where they are from and live.
I am for a national referree pool to draw from. That way there will be none of this team and ref affiliation junk. All the Conferences put their share of funding for the ref's and no ref can work a game where in the area he lives or graduated from or an Alumni of. That way you releave the ref's from being rediculed for making a call that could decide the game or game changing call. They human no different than you or I and they do have bad days and do make bad calls every once in awhile that is what replay in order to correct these bad calls. The same goes for the replay both Officials There should be two in order to make sure they get it right.
Those calls that are getting past should not happen because they need to be conclusive when it is plain to the necked eyes of everyone watching the game live and on TV. Because of replay there should not be a call that does not get corrected.
quote:
Are you saying that the SEC is hiding the information on how many fouls each team is penalized for now?
No! Iam saying that is what the SEC is saying by not leaving the stats on the website so that they can be accessable. Why are they hidding those numbers and also why are they hidding the Names of the ref's and where they are from. I am not advocating in giving their personal information add. phone, and such but just the info that will let everyone know where they are from and live.
I am for a national referree pool to draw from. That way there will be none of this team and ref affiliation junk. All the Conferences put their share of funding for the ref's and no ref can work a game where in the area he lives or graduated from or an Alumni of. That way you releave the ref's from being rediculed for making a call that could decide the game or game changing call. They human no different than you or I and they do have bad days and do make bad calls every once in awhile that is what replay in order to correct these bad calls. The same goes for the replay both Officials There should be two in order to make sure they get it right.
Those calls that are getting past should not happen because they need to be conclusive when it is plain to the necked eyes of everyone watching the game live and on TV. Because of replay there should not be a call that does not get corrected.
This post was edited on 10/21/10 at 2:42 pm
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:13 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:
Iam saying that is what the SEC is saying by not leaving the stats on the website so that they can be accessable. Why are they hidding those numbers
I just went to the ESPN box score for the LSU-Florida game from this year and found the penalty information quite easily.
https://espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=302820057
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:15 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:
I am for a national referree pool to draw from. That way there will be none of this team and ref affiliation junk. All the Conferences put their share of funding for the ref's and no ref can work a game where in the area he lives or graduated from or an Alumni of. That way you releave the ref's from being rediculed for making a call that could decide the game or game changing call. They human no different than you or I and they do have bad days and do make bad calls every once in awhile that is what replay in order to correct these bad calls. The same goes for the replay both Officials There should be two in order to make sure they get it right.
FWIW, I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Again, my whole purpose in this thread was to prove that there is no real conspiracy to prop Alabama and Auburn up.
The only plausible "conspiracy" I could believe in was that the SEC worked to protect the schools that had the best shot at the BCS championship game, which would mean that LSU has benefited in the past as well.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:25 pm to CaseyMc2
quote:
No! Iam saying that is what the SEC is saying by not leaving the stats on the website so that they can be accessable. Why are they hidding those numbers and also why are they hidding the Names of the ref's and where they are from. I am not advocating in giving their personal information add. phone, and such but just the info that will let everyone know where they are from and live.
I see - if stats aren't left on the SEC's Web site indefinitely, then there is some sort of coverup. That makes sense. I can go on there today and find out exactly where every team is at this point with respect to number of fouls, yardage, rank, et.
The names of the officials are not hidden from anyone. They are included in the box score from every game and those box scores are available on the schools' Web sites dating back many years.
quote:
I am for a national referree pool to draw from. That way there will be none of this team and ref affiliation junk. All the Conferences put their share of funding for the ref's and no ref can work a game where in the area he lives or graduated from or an Alumni of. That way you releave the ref's from being rediculed for making a call that could decide the game or game changing call. They human no different than you or I and they do have bad days and do make bad calls every once in awhile that is what replay in order to correct these bad calls. The same goes for the replay both Officials There should be two in order to make sure they get it right.
That is probably not that far off. Therte are already some conferences who are in the process of experimenting with more regionalized crews, much like basketball does now where you might work for 3-4 different conferences. If you want multiples in replay, IMO three would be better than two, that way you have a tiebreaker.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:26 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
I just went to the ESPN box score for the LSU-Florida game from this year and found the penalty information quite easily.
The SEC makes it available on their site for the season...
SEC season stats
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:37 pm to 62zip
quote:
The SEC makes it available on their site for the season...
SEC season stats
only problem with those stats is that they include all games. in order to run a fair analysis, i'd need to have the data of only the SEC games.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:39 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
only problem with those stats is that they include all games. in order to run a fair analysis, i'd need to have the data of only the SEC games.
Just SEC games, or would you also throw in non-conference games that featured SEC crews like LSU/McNeese or Arkansas/A&M?
It could be done, you would just have to figure out which non conference games would be involved and then get all of the box scores.
But anyhow, the point of posting that link was that the info is "hidden" by the SEC. It's right there for anyone who wants it.
Posted on 10/21/10 at 2:43 pm to 62zip
quote:
Just SEC games
would be the most fair analysis
quote:
But anyhow, the point of posting that link was that the info is "hidden" by the SEC. It's right there for anyone who wants it.
yea, it's all out there.
I even found the names of the officiating crew for the LSU-Florida game on the LSUSports.net website. here's the link (PDF file): https://www.lsusports.net/pdf8/715934.pdf?ATCLID=205009440&SPSID=27815&SPID=2164&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=5200
quote:
Kickoff time: 7:39pm • End of Game: 11:04pm • Total elapsed time: 3:25
Officials: Referee: Steve Shaw; Umpire: Brent Sowell; Linesman: Gary Jayroe;
Line judge: Jim Kelley; Back judge: Rich Martinez; Field judge: Mike Washington;
Side judge: Richard Rooker; Scorer: Steve Howard;
Temperature: 82 • Wind: W 6mph • Weather: clear, humid 43%
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