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Message
re: "Game Managers" Do Not Win Championships
Posted on 9/24/09 at 5:55 am to King Joey
Posted on 9/24/09 at 5:55 am to King Joey
quote:
I guess the question I have is if Krentzel were exactly the same QB that threw a TD about once every 5 trips into the redzone, but his offense made 10 redzone trips per game giving him 26 TD passes on the season, would that change his status as a "game manager"?
Well, in theory, if his passing was the result of getting into the redzone so much more, then he's less of a game manager. Usually, passing yards and TDs are somewhat correlated. Meaning, you wont see a guy with 40 TD passes and 1500 yards passing.
quote:
I ask because I think the question in the OP suffers from a problem of perspective. Many teams begin each season with what would be regarded as "game managers" (the way Carl, et al, are using the term). Sometimes, those teams end up winning the National Championship. In order to win a National Championship, however, just about every aspect of your team has to be succesful (even a "game manager" QB). When looked at retrospectively -- as the OP does -- this makes the "game managers" seem like "playmakers" because the success around them combined with their occasional need to make plays creates an impression of playmaking that exceeds the nature of the player. In an effective and high scoring offense, even a "game manager" type QB will throw a pretty good number of TDs.
Fair points. I'm leaving work, so I cant get into it enough, lol. But those are very valid points.
quote:
So was Flynn a playmaker that threw a lot of TDs because his playmaking ability was the focal point of the offense? Or was he more of a game manager that got a lot of TD passes because his offense got a ton of cracks at the endzone plus he had a lot of playmakers turning his easy passes into big scores?
Well, Flynn really didn't throw a lot of TD passes. But he made far too many mistakes, IMO, to be considered a good game manager. But, he also made many good plays as well, obviously.
0
Posted on 9/24/09 at 6:26 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
game managers aren't asked to do much, but are relatively efficient when asked to perform
if you want to call that a "bad" quarterback, then that's your perrogative
Hey, it wasn't me, it was him. You can fight it all you want. I know it doesn't fit your agenda, so you'll never give in. I know how bad it sucks to be forced to argue the losing side. Everyone has to do it from time to time. Good luck.
This post was edited on 9/24/09 at 8:53 am
Posted on 9/24/09 at 8:24 am to King Joey
quote:
I don't see how a QB can be looked at as a game manager because he does nothing but throw short slants and WR screens that go for 4 or 5 yards, but the same QB is automatically not a game manager if the exact same passes are consistently turned into 30 or 40 yard gains and 40+ TDs because they WRs are all-world.
well when you point out an offense where 4/5 yard slants and bubble screens consistently go for 40-50 yards, and i'll agree
no QB on a top team in the past 10 years has had the benefit of these anomalies
Posted on 9/24/09 at 8:29 am to King Joey
quote:
For example: In 2007 Matt Flynn threw 21 TDs, not even good enough to make the top 3 at LSU, despite leading by far the most prolific scoring offense in LSU history.
he did miss 2 full games and was hurt for 2-3 more in which he played (namely south carolina)
quote:
plus he had a lot of playmakers turning his easy passes into big scores?
how many short passes went for TDs in 2007? KWs swing screen against AU and? there may be 1 or 2 more
quote:
Given that Krenzel is the "perfect example" of a game manager, and his statistical signficance to their offense was VERY comparable to Flynn's
how many TDs did that OSU team score? i bet LSU scores many more TDs
Posted on 9/24/09 at 8:30 am to AlxTgr
quote:
You can fight it all you want. I know it doesn't fit your agenda, so you'll never give in.
no
you're trying to re-define what is being discussed
feel free to do so, but when you do that, you're not discussing the subject at hand
Posted on 9/24/09 at 8:47 am to SlowFlowPro
post fail by hot carl
Posted on 9/24/09 at 8:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
no
you're trying to re-define what is being discussed
Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Good luck with that. Dumb-arse carl starts off with a flawed assumption and no definitions of terms that can't really be defined in a way that people can agree on, and I'm the one re-defining that which was never defined in the first place. Yes, shitty QB's don't win championships. I agree with Carl.
Posted on 9/24/09 at 9:56 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:That's kind of my point. LSU scored 64 TDs compared to OSU's 45, but Krenzel was just as much a "focal point" of their offense as Flynn was of ours; ours was just a better offense. I was pointing out that just because the offense overall was more effective doesn't necessarily mean you have to call the QB a "playmaker" rather than a "game manager;" he was just a better "game manager" of a better offense. And Krenzel's INT stats were comparable to Flynn's, and his TD to INT ratio was significantly worse. So he wasn't particularly better at avoiding mistakes, either.
how many TDs did that OSU team score? i bet LSU scores many more TDs
Posted on 9/24/09 at 10:18 am to King Joey
quote:
That's kind of my point. LSU scored 64 TDs compared to OSU's 45, but Krenzel was just as much a "focal point" of their offense as Flynn was of ours;
Maurice Clarett
Posted on 9/24/09 at 10:25 am to Wideman
quote:Right, that's why Krenzel wasn't much of a focal point of that offense. And since he made up a comparable proportion of that offense as Flynn did our '07 offense, I'm asking what makes it so "stupid" to consider Flynn a game manager.
Maurice Clarett
Posted on 9/24/09 at 10:29 am to WreckinRams05
Chris Leak says HI
Posted on 9/25/09 at 6:59 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
his 2003 stats
14 148.24 358-229-14 64.0 2825 28 64 201.8
229/358 (64.0%) for 2825 and 28/14
2825/358 = 7.89 yards/attempt
Do you really think that using a QBs stats are the best way to argue that someone isn't a "game manager"?
What do those stats so to me?....That he was a great game manager that got the ball to the playmakers around him and let them make the plays!
Let's not forget the the "yards" category for QBs is largely dependent on the yards after the catch. Oh that's right, its the receiver that would be the playmaker actually doing the work that leads to these stats!
Weren't most of Flynn's passes the infamous "bubble screens" ?
This post was edited on 9/25/09 at 7:01 am
Posted on 9/25/09 at 7:54 am to Hot Carl
HotCarl, for somebody thats made as many posts as you have, you seem to have a lack of knowledge of how the game is played...
Posted on 9/25/09 at 10:23 am to Hot Carl
Hot Carl...are you just a negatiger?...or you just plain that damn stupid?... 
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