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Message
Correct rulebook clarification on what occured, LSU vs. UK MBB
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:11 am
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:11 am
The link to the following rule is here - NCAA Men's Basketball, 2018-2019 Rules
LSU player that completed the tip-in clearly violated this rule.
This caveat possibly absolves the LSU player. Its a poorly written one. " A player may have a hand legally in contact with the ball...continues after the ball enters the cylinder". Continues from what point? "or when...the player touches or grabs the basket" I believe the spirit of this rule was intended to allow for dunking. I relent.
Two different Uk players clearly violated this rule. The first UK player that stuck his hand through the rim with apparent contact with the net and rim, "Causes the basket or backboard...to vibrate when the ball is on or within...the backboard". The second UK player that slapped the backboard, "Causes the basket or backboard...to vibrate when the ball is...on or in the cylinder". If unsure of the vibration focus on the light reflection off the backboard when watching the replay. Pause replay once the ball is in the cylinder extending above the rim after it just kissed off the vibrating backboard.
Goaltending should never have been in question as no, "defensive player touches the ball during a field-goal try".
LSU did, in fact, commit a violation. However, it is a moot point as UK violated the basket interference rule not once but twice before the LSU violation occurred.
Basket should have counted on the two UK violations.
Game over. LSU wins.
Case closed. Move on UK and ESPN. Lets not start talking about all the bad foul calls and no-calls that went against LSU.
quote:
Section 15. Basket Interference and Goaltending
Art. 1. It is a violation to commit basket interference or goaltending.
Art. 2. Basket interference
a. Basket interference occurs when a player:
1. Touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within the basket;
2. Touches the ball while any part of it is within the cylinder that has the ring as its lower base;
3. Reaches through the basket from below and touches the ball before it enters the cylinder;
4. Pulls down a movable ring so that it contacts the ball before the ring returns to its original position, and
5. Causes the basket or backboard to vibrate when the ball is on or within the basket or the backboard and/or is on or in the cylinder.
b. The cylinder is the imaginary geometric figure that has the ring as its base and is formed by the upward extension of that ring.
c. The ball shall be considered to be within the basket when any part of the ball is below the cylinder and the level of the ring.
d. A player may have a hand legally in contact with the ball, when this contact continues after the ball enters the cylinder or when, during such action, the player touches or grabs the basket.
Art. 3. Goaltending.
a. Goaltending occurs when a defensive player touches the ball during a field-goal try and each of the following conditions is met: (Exceptions: Rule 10-4.1.h)
1. The ball is on its downward flight; and
2. The ball is above the level of the ring and has the possibility, while in flight, of entering the basket and is not touching the cylinder.
b. It is goaltending to touch the ball outside the cylinder during a free throw, regardless of whether the free throw is on its upward or downward flight.
c. When the ball contacts the backboard and any part of the ball is above the rim during a field goal attempt, it is considered to be on its downward flight. In such a case, it is goaltending when the ball is touched by a player as long as it has a possibility of entering the basket.
PENALTY (Section 15):
a. When the violation is at the basket of the opponent of the offending player, the offended team shall be awarded:
1. One point for basket interference or one point and a CLASS B technical foul for goaltending when, during a free throw, the ball is on its upward or downward flight.
2. Two points when it occurs during a two-point field-goal try.
3. Three points when it occurs during a three-point field-goal try.
b. The crediting of the score resulting from basket interference or goaltending and subsequent throw-in procedure shall be the same as when the awarded score results from the ball going through the basket, except that the official shall hand/bounce the ball to a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.
c When the violation is at a team’s own basket, no points shall be scored and the ball shall be awarded to the offended team at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
d. When the violation results from touching the ball while it is in the basket after entering from below, no points shall be scored and the ball shall be awarded to the opponent at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
e. When there is a violation by both teams, play shall be resumed by awarding the ball to the team entitled to the alternating-possession throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred using the procedures in Rule 7-3.2.
quote:
a. Basket interference occurs when a player:
2. Touches the ball while any part of it is within the cylinder that has the ring as its lower base;
quote:
b. The cylinder is the imaginary geometric figure that has the ring as its base and is formed by the upward extension of that ring.
LSU player that completed the tip-in clearly violated this rule.
quote:
d. A player may have a hand legally in contact with the ball, when this contact continues after the ball enters the cylinder or when, during such action, the player touches or grabs the basket.
This caveat possibly absolves the LSU player. Its a poorly written one. " A player may have a hand legally in contact with the ball...continues after the ball enters the cylinder". Continues from what point? "or when...the player touches or grabs the basket" I believe the spirit of this rule was intended to allow for dunking. I relent.
quote:
a. Basket interference occurs when a player:
5. Causes the basket or backboard to vibrate when the ball is on or within the basket or the backboard and/or is on or in the cylinder.
Two different Uk players clearly violated this rule. The first UK player that stuck his hand through the rim with apparent contact with the net and rim, "Causes the basket or backboard...to vibrate when the ball is on or within...the backboard". The second UK player that slapped the backboard, "Causes the basket or backboard...to vibrate when the ball is...on or in the cylinder". If unsure of the vibration focus on the light reflection off the backboard when watching the replay. Pause replay once the ball is in the cylinder extending above the rim after it just kissed off the vibrating backboard.
quote:
b. The cylinder is the imaginary geometric figure that has the ring as its base and is formed by the upward extension of that ring.
Goaltending should never have been in question as no, "defensive player touches the ball during a field-goal try".
LSU did, in fact, commit a violation. However, it is a moot point as UK violated the basket interference rule not once but twice before the LSU violation occurred.
Basket should have counted on the two UK violations.
Game over. LSU wins.
Case closed. Move on UK and ESPN. Lets not start talking about all the bad foul calls and no-calls that went against LSU.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:14 am to nola000
By letter of the law the tip in was offensive goaltending but similar plays happen all the time and they never call it. It’s a judgement call by the official. Some go your way some don’t that’s sports.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:14 am to nola000
Anyone that has watched a lick of basketball knows that Kentucky (or any other team) would have never, ever been called for goaltending on a missed block attempt that results in a backboard slap. Simply doesn't happen.
Also, anyone that watches basketball knows that 90% of the time the offense is given the benefit of the doubt on basket interference, especially a ball that is on the way out and already half out of the cylinder. However, if a defender grabbed it in that spot, it assuredly would have been called a goaltend. That's just the way referees have always interpreted the rules, especially in real time.
Also, anyone that watches basketball knows that 90% of the time the offense is given the benefit of the doubt on basket interference, especially a ball that is on the way out and already half out of the cylinder. However, if a defender grabbed it in that spot, it assuredly would have been called a goaltend. That's just the way referees have always interpreted the rules, especially in real time.
This post was edited on 2/13/19 at 10:16 am
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:16 am to nola000
Regardless of the centimeters being discussed, or even the minor tremor being discussed with the rim and backboard interference from UK, that series was called exactly as 99% of substantively identical plays are called across the league. Neither were egregious. It's only being put under a microscope because of the circumstances.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:18 am to nola000
Kentucky should have never even been in position to have this game tied at the end, refs gave them the tie game with bs foul call. So let em cry all they want, refs suck and that’s the way it is and you live with it.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:20 am to slackster
quote:correct. The refs wouldn't (and shouldn't) end the game on a cheap technicality like that.
Anyone that has watched a lick of basketball knows that Kentucky (or any other team) would have never, ever been called for goaltending on a missed block attempt that results in a backboard slap. Simply doesn't happen.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:22 am to slackster
quote:
Anyone that has watched a lick of basketball knows that Kentucky (or any other team) would have never, ever been called for goaltending on a missed block attempt that results in a backboard slap. Simply doesn't happen.
Also, anyone that watches basketball knows that 90% of the time the offense is given the benefit of the doubt on basket interference, especially a ball that is on the way out and already half out of the cylinder. However, if a defender grabbed it in that spot, it assuredly would have been called a goaltend. That's just the way referees have always interpreted the rules, especially in real time.
All of this.
And from the courtside twitter video that someone posted last night, it's easy to see why it wasn't called on the floor. It's moving so fast and in real time it definitely looked like it had come off. I think it's easy to forget with so many games on tv and everyone is so used to seeing slow motion instant replays that the action out there is moving so fast in real time.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:22 am to geauxtigers33
quote:
It’s a judgement call by the official. Some go your way some don’t that’s sports.
I dont like this AT ALL...but its true. Unfortunately.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:23 am to slackster
quote:
Also, anyone that watches basketball knows that 90% of the time the offense is given the benefit of the doubt on basket interference, especially a ball that is on the way out and already half out of the cylinder.
Yep. Also, I despise this rule anyway. I wish the NCAA would go to the international rules. If the ball is coming out you should be able to slam it in. By the letter of the rule we almost certainly were in violation. Kentucky got their fair share of calls. frick em
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:24 am to nola000
My thing about KBW touching the ball while it's still in the cylinder is that the overhead camera isn't directly over the front of the rim. It's set back a foot or so. The floor camera angle looks like the ball could be off the front of the rim. From what I've seen people on TV are looking at the view from the top of the key and from that angle it looks like it's still in the cylinder. IMO it's far enough off the front of the rim to not be interference.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:27 am to TigerLunatik
quote:
My thing about KBW touching the ball while it's still in the cylinder is that the overhead camera isn't directly over the front of the rim. It's set back a foot or so.
Also, this. I think it's closer to being out of the cylinder than people are saying. It's very much a quick judgment call and one that apparently can't be reviewed. I reiterate my "frick em" stance. Kentucky got more than a few favorable calls in that game and over the last, I dunno, 5 decades.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:28 am to TigerLunatik
quote:
TigerLunatik
Not to derail this thread, but has the newest version of tigerinevergreen, earlpearl, showed up yet to claim that the basketball team hasn't beaten any teams worth a damn?
Directed this question to you Lunatik since the two of you were really going back and forth about this subject a few days back.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:32 am to TigerLunatik
quote:
My thing about KBW touching the ball while it's still in the cylinder is that the overhead camera isn't directly over the front of the rim. It's set back a foot or so. The floor camera angle looks like the ball could be off the front of the rim. From what I've seen people on TV are looking at the view from the top of the key and from that angle it looks like it's still in the cylinder. IMO it's far enough off the front of the rim to not be interference.
I noticed this too. With camera being back behind the backboard, it skews the perspective. For an accurate look you would have to have a camera centered in the vertical plane of the center of the basket or "cylinder" suspended from the ceiling of the arena.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:32 am to earl keese
I'm not sure, earl. I just got a chance to check the board a little bit ago. I'm just happy we won.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:39 am to nola000
Another reason Section 15, Art. 2, subsection a is poorly crafted is it uses the conjunction "and" instead of "or". If this were a criminal statute, for example, an accused could not be convicted of "basket interference" unless he has been found to have committed all five (i.e. Section 15, Art. 2, subsection a, parts 1, 2, 3, 4, AND 5) of the parts specified. So, did an LSU player commit the act defined in section 1 ("touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within the basket"; note NOT the cylinder).
I know that's not the "intent" or what is "meant" by the rule but when reading the "letter" of the rule, that's what is required.
I know that's not the "intent" or what is "meant" by the rule but when reading the "letter" of the rule, that's what is required.
Posted on 2/13/19 at 10:40 am to TigerLunatik
quote:
I'm not sure, earl. I just got a chance to check the board a little bit ago. I'm just happy we won.
Great game last night. Great win!
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