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Message
re: Cam Thomas on fire again
Posted on 4/9/23 at 7:37 pm to Lester Earl
Posted on 4/9/23 at 7:37 pm to Lester Earl
Dont you think the staff knows this and are ok with it? Im no coach but would think if a guy can go off for 40+ any given night Im game planning around that dude and getting defense elsewhere
1
Posted on 4/9/23 at 7:40 pm to Chalkywhite84
quote:
While i get your point, he just is what he is. A microwave scorer off the bench. There is a place in the nba for a player of his caliber.
He doesn't suck
if you consider his contribution as a whole, he is, again, a net negative. you never are in a situation where you need scoring if that scoring comes without defense, and with selfishness.
he scores at the expense of his teammates and gives up more offense than he provides. if you put him in as a microwave, your team will be down more when you take him out, even if he scores a quick dozen.
his statistically most similar player is frank jackson, formerly of new orleans, but now out of the league.
when cam is in the game, he hurts the offense a little, and the defense a lot.
the only real use for cam for a smart team would be a player to get fouled at the end of the game. because you could give it to him, he never passes, and he takes fouls and makes free throws.
This post was edited on 4/9/23 at 7:51 pm
Posted on 4/9/23 at 8:37 pm to jamarr
Your assessment is just totally wrong. You’re putting all the weight in things that don’t matter and dismissing actual hard data.
This post was edited on 4/9/23 at 8:45 pm
Posted on 4/9/23 at 8:51 pm to Madking
quote:
dismissing actual hard data
hard data is the only thing i have been discussing. box plus minus, offensive and defensive efficiency, value over replacement player etc. this hard data shows he is not a player that helps you win.
look at his stats here, his offensive and defensive plus minus are a negative number
LINK
look at his league adjusted numbers, which are normed to 100. he is below 100 at everything except free throws.
LINK
what hard data do you claim i dismiss?
his net rating is negative. -1.6
LINK
This post was edited on 4/9/23 at 8:55 pm
Posted on 4/9/23 at 8:56 pm to rattlebucket
quote:that can a recipe for entertainment but absolutely not winning anything noteworthy. Are you not familiar with James Harden at all? can put butts in the seat but not accomplishing anything.
Im no coach but would think if a guy can go off for 40+ any given night Im game planning around that dude and getting defense elsewhere
Posted on 4/9/23 at 8:56 pm to jamarr
That’s not hard data buddy, that’s where you’re confused.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:02 pm to Madking
quote:
That’s not hard data buddy, that’s where you’re confused
i ask again, "what hard data do you claim i dismiss?"
lemme repeat that for the third time.
what hard data do you claim i dismiss?
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:04 pm to faraway
quote:
James Harden at all? can put butts in the seat but not accomplishing anything.
Carmelo anthony as well. there are many players who can score but in doing so lessen the chance to win. soccer experts make thjis claim about ronaldo now, which is why he had to leave europe. some players distort the team in a way that pads their own stats while not all in service of winning.
if we accept that some players make their teams better whilst not scoring much, surely we can accept that the opposite type player exists.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:08 pm to jamarr
You’re dismissing 46 points using +/- that doesn’t apply. If it were an actual measure of +/- it would be in comparison to his matchup. Pick any of the guys he matched up with, he outscored all of em by at least 26 points. What you’re doing is dismissing his actual production and making it a 1 vs 4 situation. Was he out there playing 1 on 4? No he wasn’t which is why no coach uses that statistic.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:10 pm to jamarr
The A’s haven’t won a World Series playing the Money Ball way.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:10 pm to jamarr
quote:
46 points and one assist. one.
Kind of difficult to do
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:11 pm to trakmak777
And baseball is at deaths door because it has diminished the game. Nerds who never played don’t understand what analytics really are.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:28 pm to Madking
quote:
You’re dismissing 46 points using +/- that doesn’t apply
not dismissing anything i am in fact considering that data, along with far more data like VORP etc that are not plus minuns. also BPM is box plus minus and is not the same as simple plus minus and avoids some of the problems with that stat. BPM is relative to the league and not simply the game being played. LINK
cam is poor in offensive efficiency and terrible in defensive efficiency. his effort and technique on D is terrible. feel free to research these "hard stats", or i can look them up and help you.
defense matters. its half the game.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:29 pm to jamarr
Again that isn’t data and again the guys who he defended didn’t come within 25 points of what he scored.
This post was edited on 4/9/23 at 9:30 pm
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:40 pm to Madking
quote:
Again that isn’t data and again the guys who he defended didn’t come within 25 points of what he scored
let try not to fixate on a one game sample size.
also lets consider that a player can score plenty and not benefit the team, if he scores at the expense of his teammates and is a massive defensive liability.
like can you conceive of a situation where a player scores and the players around him score less such that the net points scored is the same even tho one guy scores more than the others?
if every guy scores 10 and they score together 50, or if one guy scores 42 and the others combine for 8, do you see how the scoring 42 was not a net gain?
high scoring is not simply a good thing regardless of everything else. it usually is a good thing, but not always. you would rather have a more complete player, and as a guard you surely need somebody that can pass. cam doesnt pass. or rebound. or steal. or block out. or prevent drives. or close out 3s.
cam is about as one dimentional as a player can be. a high volume shooter/scorer. this needs to be accompanied by other contributions to be a net gain.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:47 pm to jamarr
You’re making a generalized argument where your examples are totally different players than Cam. As far as Cam, in year 2 his efficiency is improving, especially from 3. His FTs have doubled and his turnover rate is still low. He’s a scorer, nobody is saying he’s MJ, but he definitely has huge upside if he gets on with a good organization because he’s a big time scorer at all 3 levels which is rare.
This post was edited on 4/9/23 at 9:48 pm
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:50 pm to jamarr
quote:
cam is hugely deficient in many parts of his game. he is very selfish, ignores open teammates, and is absolutely horrible at defense
That's not what I saw. Scoring 50 points isn't selfish, it helps your team win. Scoring 50 points is good offense, which is the best defense.
I can't explain only one assist. Maybe he didn't feel his teammate(s) could score in those situations
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:57 pm to tarzana
I don’t follow his comps of Cams play style. On one hand he’s comparing him to high usage guys like Harden who’s very much like Luka but they’re high assist guys. On the other hand he’s comparing him to Melo who’s totally different. On top of that Cam doesn’t play like any of those guys. Just because some theoretical number is comparable doesn’t mean their games are similar. I’m not trying to attack the guy but his assessment is totally off because he doesn’t take into account the practical side of it, the actual things happening on the court.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 9:58 pm to trakmak777
quote:
The A’s haven’t won a World Series playing the Money Ball way.
the richer teams have.
plus the playoffs are a small sample size and fairly random. a wild card can win and not be close to the best team.
Posted on 4/9/23 at 10:02 pm to tarzana
quote:
I can't explain only one assist
i can. he is taking points away from his mates by being selfish. its a team game. you dont help the team by scoring at other's expense.
if you score 20 and prevent a teammate from scoring 10, its bad. and if you also allow a ton of points from the guy you are too lazy to defend, thats an issue. and if you dont rebound. or steal or block out etc.
quote:
good offense, which is the best defense
no what is the best defense is actual good defense.
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