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Message
re: Cam Thomas Front-runner for POY SEC
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:49 am to Metaloctopus
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:49 am to Metaloctopus
quote:
Scoring average is meaningless when you are hogging all of the shots and shooting a low percentage.
Whoever has the most points wins the game. It's only "meaningless" if it is preventing other guys from scoring big numbers and the offense as a whole is suffering. That's not the case with LSU. Smart and Watford are both in the top ten in the SEC in scoring average. LSU is also second in the league in ppg (10th in the nation).
He's averaging 5 more shots per game than the next two guys on the team (Smart and Watford). Considering those two guys are shooting at a higher FG%, perhaps if Thomas took a few less shots per game it would help...but not by much. The likely result is that he would be averaging around 17-18...as would Smart and Watford. So the scoring would be more "balance", but the gross total would be about the same.
Some of the forced shots are frustrating. No question. And I don't think it is a coincidence that in the SEC games where he has had the most assists are the games where LSU has had the highest FG% overall. But some of the "bad shots" come from him trying to get to the FT line...where he shoots 90%. Make no mistake, that is ABSOLUTELY part of the LSU offensive plan. You want a 90% FT shooter getting to line as often as possible.
The complaints about the shot volume and selection are valid. But the last two games he's tied his season high for assists with 4. LSU has also shot over 50% in BOTH games and won by double digits. Let's see if that continues.
That said, all the bitching and complaining about him on offense has been largely inconsequential. LSU is STILL the most efficient offensive team in the SEC by a large margin. Where Thomas has hurt the team is defensively where, I hate to say it, he's been awful.
Still, we forget he is a true freshman and this team as only played 19 games when in a normal year at this point in the season they would have played 27. The optimist says that the last two games where he's had 4 assists in each show he and the team are evolving...an evolution that in a normal year may have taken place in mid-January when LSU SHOULD have hit the 19 game mark
This post was edited on 2/18/21 at 10:49 am
1
Posted on 2/18/21 at 10:54 am to TigerLaw40
quote:
And those 6 losses are because of team DEFENSE, BRO, not offense.
And who is the worst defensive player on the team?
The award is “SEC Player of the Year”, not simply “the SEC points leader”.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:02 am to Choupique19
quote:
And who is the worst defensive player on the team?
The award is “SEC Player of the Year”, not simply “the SEC points leader”.
It’s not even about the defense really
If you’re going to sit here and tell me LSU is the most efficient offense in the nation, then every possession counts. A dude shooting the least efficient shot, at will, makes no sense. You’re taking away possessions from the most efficient offense in America
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:07 am to Lester Earl
I was just backing you up by going after the low hanging fruit.
I’m not in disagreement about your offensive analysis either.
I’m not in disagreement about your offensive analysis either.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:10 am to Lester Earl
quote:
bullshite
quote:
Y’all cry cause teams make 3’s but think it’s ok for Thomas to go 1-8 from 3 when he’s been shooting 25% all conference
What the hell does one of these even have to do with the other?
I'm not sure why I even bother with you as you have proven time and again that you are just an obstinate arse; but here we go.
Of the 6 losses, at least 3 were most definitely b/c of defense (SLU - 85-81; UF - 83-79; and the first Bama game, which is so much an outlier that nothing would have helped that game)
Only 2 losses you could argue that offense played a part in it; but I could argue defense was just as much a role, and that was UK and 2nd Bama game. So let's take a look at those 2:
UK - Cam was atrocious from an efficiency standpoint; but not sole reason for their offense being bad as he still had double digit points. Watford was the only good offensive player that game with both Smart (worse than Cam) and Days being horrible.
Bama - Cam was 8/19 for 42% FG and 2/4 for 50% 3pt, totaling 22 pts and had 5 rebounds. Next highest scorers were Smart (14 pts on 27% FG, 33% 3 pt, & 5 TO's to 0 assists) and Watford (9 pts on 23% FG, 0% 3 pt (2 attempts)). So I would say factually speaking that Cam was not the issue that game on offense; in fact, he was the only good offensive player that game.
So again, I'll ask you, which you have yet to answer - how has he hurt the team?
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:28 am to Choupique19
quote:
And who is the worst defensive player on the team?
I don't know. You tell me and I guess we will both know. But my argument has never been about how good or bad Thomas is on defense. But I could argue that pretty much all 4 of the top scorers are probably just about our worst defenders on the team.
quote:
The award is “SEC Player of the Year”, not simply “the SEC points leader”.
Well I'll be damned, you educated me on something. I guess just like the NFL MVP is supposed to be for the best player and not necessarily the best QB; but here we are with a QB having won 13 of the last 14 seasons.
While I don't disagree the award should be based on a well-rounded player, it inevitably always goes to the top offensive performer.
And again, I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR HIM TO WIN THE AWARD. The article in the OP is the one talking about him being a leader for the award. I, as an LSU FAN, choose to be happy in the fact that one of our players is receiving such positive recognition instead of crapping on his game or bitching about his shortcomings.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:54 am to TigerLaw40
quote:
I, as an LSU FAN, choose to be happy in the fact that one of our players is receiving such positive recognition
As am I
quote:
instead of crapping on his game or bitching about his shortcomings.
Those shortcomings are the reason he doesn't deserve the award this season.
It's okay to be objective.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 11:56 am to TigerLaw40
quote:
You’re asking me how someone that shoots seven 3pters a game at 26% can hurt a team?
quote:
I didn't ask how can it? I asked how does it, or better, how has it hurt the team?
Cam leads the league is possessions killed by poor shot selection. He just tries to do too much too fast.
I think he can be a POY and maybe even an All-American, but he is not at that level right now. He is immature, selfish (in the basketball sense), not smart (in the basketball sense) and lacking an all-around game. Maybe some of this is his age, maybe some of it is coaching; regardless, he can be everything some of you guys want him to be, but it will take time and effort...unfortunately, time may not be on our side.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:05 pm to Choupique19
quote:
Those shortcomings are the reason he doesn't deserve the award this season.
It's okay to be objective.
And I haven't made an argument for or against him winning the award either.
This all started because Lester chose to point out Thomas' shooting numbers in an effort to crap on the guy the same way he did the whole time Tremont was here, despite the fact that one could easily have made an argument for Tremont being the MVP his 2 years here.
And in my arguments on Thomas, I believe I have been pretty objective using facts to show how just b/c he may not be as efficient as some of y'all want him to be or think he should be, he has not been some offensive detriment to the team like people want to claim based on their subjectivity. In fact, I have yet to see Lester or anyone else use facts to show how he has hurt this team offensively leading to losses.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:15 pm to TigerLaw40
quote:
In fact, I have yet to see Lester or anyone else use facts to show how he has hurt this team offensively leading to losses.
You listed 3 close losses this team has and blamed it on the defense. And while I agree that LSU plays poor defense for stretches at a time, I guarantee you if we went through those games we can find many wasted offensive possessions in which Thomas forced unnecessary shots early in the shot clock.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:29 pm to Choupique19
quote:
When he doesn’t force shots and shoots in rhythm coming off of a teammate’s pass he has been knocking them down, especially in the last three games. But there was a stretch this year when he took so many contested three point shots off the dribble with a defender in his face and he was making about 15% of those.
Many of those he turned into three or four point plays when that was the difference between winning and losing a game. He is special when drawing fouls.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:41 pm to Choupique19
quote:
I guarantee you if we went through those games we can find many wasted offensive possessions in which Thomas forced unnecessary shots early in the shot clock.
Seriously, this is where we are going with this? And I can probably find just as many dumb turnovers or useless possessions by other players too. See how that works? It's called the game of basketball, no one is perfect.
Overall, what I know is that this team is the 6th most efficient offense in the country and Cam is the highest scorer on that team. And if he is a volume scorer, then so be it because it obviously hasn't been to the detriment of the team's offense as a whole, otherwise, they wouldn't be such an elite efficient team that also has THREE other players averaging double digit scoring.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:53 pm to TigerLaw40
quote:
In fact, I have yet to see Lester or anyone else use facts to show how he has hurt this team offensively leading to losses.
If Bryan penn Johnson was going out there and shooting 7 there’s a game at 26%, you would say that was fine, because the offense as a whole is efficient?
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:54 pm to TigerLaw40
Kenpom currently has his as SEC player of the year surprisingly and that is 100% based on metrics. KenPom is about efficiency metrics so I was shocked when I saw that but he's been his top SEC player all season.
Cam very well may win it because he is scoring so many points on a team who is top quarter of the league. Bama doesn't have a superstar, they just have a great squad full of players.
I don't think Cam wins it many years but this year may be the exception.
Cam very well may win it because he is scoring so many points on a team who is top quarter of the league. Bama doesn't have a superstar, they just have a great squad full of players.
I don't think Cam wins it many years but this year may be the exception.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 12:57 pm to Lester Earl
I actually do agree with Lester though that he takes too many bad shots. I think he's been better the last week not taking those shots, but to act like it hasnt been a little bit of a problem is just blind.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 1:02 pm to SouthOfSouth
Dude makes his living drawing contact near the rim. And shoots 50% on 2pt FG. He has the tools to be an offensive monster without shooting more than 2-3 threes a game
Posted on 2/18/21 at 1:10 pm to SouthOfSouth
quote:
I actually do agree with Lester though that he takes too many bad shots.
And I have never disagreed that he takes a lot of bad shots. I pull my hair out multiple times a game over it.
My point all along is that it has not been to some huge detriment to the team like a lot of people want to say. The guy is still averaging over 22 pts per game, and like Alt said, this game is about points.
If all those bad shots or number of shots were preventing the rest of the team from scoring, then yes, that would be detrimental; but no one can objectively say that is the case when LSU is literally one of the top offensive teams in the country and has 4 players averaging in double figures. And in the losses where offense was the problem, again, Cam objectively was not even the worst offensive player on the court. In fact, in the UK game, he was 2nd best (even though he was still bad) and in the 2nd Bama game, he was the best from both a scoring and efficiency standpoint.
quote:
I think he's been better the last week not taking those shots,
Yep, which is why I pointed out earlier his stats for the last 3 games, where he has appeared to turn a corner are 45% FG, 36% 3pt., 12 rebounds, and 2:1 asst to TO.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 1:12 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
If Bryan penn Johnson was going out there and shooting 7 there’s a game at 26%, you would say that was fine, because the offense as a whole is efficient?
If he were averaging +22 pts/gm while the rest of his team was also scoring, then Yes, I would say it is fine.
But instead of asking more questions and throwing shite hypotheticals at the wall, how about you answer my question I've been asking you, and do so from an objective standpoint with facts to support.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 1:13 pm to TigerLaw40
IMO the careless turnovers and unforced errors vs Saint Louis and Florida were a bigger factor in us losing than Cam's shot selection.
Posted on 2/18/21 at 1:16 pm to TigerLunatik
Javonte would be more deserving, IMO
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