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Are we overly critical of Brandon Harris? Dual Threat vs Pocket Passer?
Posted on 7/22/16 at 4:58 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 4:58 pm
Its almost become vogue to criticize Brandon Harris. Interestingly, the criticism comes mostly from LSU fans. As a recruit, you find yourself between a proverbial "rock and hard place." On the one hand, you're in one of the most conservative conferences in the country, and one of the most conservative teams in that conference. On the other hand, you're surrounded by "the best" talent in the country. You'll have games where you're allowed to throw the ball a mere 14-17 times per game, but you're tempted by the speed, size, and athleticism of your counter parts.
You have a fanbase which seems to vomit when you mention the term "dual-threat", which to them means a guy who is guaranteed to take off running at the first sign of pressure. It is also a fanbase that rejoices at the words "pro style" and "pocket passer", and seem to think this style is the path to the promise land. A review of the last 8 season shows that DT quarterbacks have claimed 4 of the last 8 SEC championships (would be 5 if you counted JJ as a dual threat). In that same time frame Johnny Football, Cam, and Tebow won the Heisman.
2015 Jake Coker (PP-QB, some would say a game manager, non-prolific)
2014 Blake Simms (DT-QB, who also played RB at Bama)
2013 Nick Marshall (DT-QB, converted from CB at Auburn)
2012 AJ McCarron (Pocket-Passer labeled game manager)
2011 Jordan Jefferson &Jarrett Lee (LSU)
2010 Cam Newton (DT-QB, Auburn) - ONE-AND-DONE HEISMAN
2009 Greg McElroy (PP-QB, Alabama)
2008 Tim Tebow (DT-QB, Florida)
Other Notables
2011-2013 Johnny Manziel (DT-QB, Texas A&M) - Wins Heisman
2013-2015 Dak Prescott (DT-QB, Miss St.) - breaks almost every school record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dak_Prescott#School_records
2010 Stephen Garcia (DT-QB, South Carolina) - Wins the SEC East
In an effort to assign blame, LSU fans have oscillated between three theories:
1. Play calling. Miles is too conservative.
2. Failure to develop QBs.
3. Lately, its Brandon Harris' fault.
The latter of which, I take issue. National pundits have joined in the BH bash, apparently forgetting that it was not too long ago, that these same fans were calling for CLMs' heads. Even more interesting, is fans use of Mettenberger as the gold standard of LSU QBing. A review of the numbers shows that 2013 tigers throw about the same rate/attempts as did the 2015 tigers. Brandon Harris' numbers are not far off of Metts, given the fact that a Mckneese State game was not played this year.
Metts 2013 Stats show:
1. Over 1/3 of Metts passing yards were vs Non-Conference opponents (Furman, TCU, Kent, UAB) who had a combined record of 17-31. Our opponents combined record that year was an unimpressive 79-74.
2. Mett only threw a total of 10 TDs versus SEC opponents (12 versus non SEC), for a total of 1957 yards.
3. Play calling was too conservative through conference play, averaging a mere 25 attempts per game. Throwing the ball a total of 17 in a 17-6 win over Florida (who finished 4-8). These numbers are very similar to our attempt total last year.
The point is:
1. Mett did not have a prolific season. He was criticized for not being mobile enough and taking too many sacks. Though he was brilliant in a loss to UGA, he chocked in a 3 INT performance vs Ole Miss. Interestingly, throwing 2 red zone picks, which were easy throws. The same throws we like to criticize Brandon for not making.
2. We struggled with identity that year. With as many as 37 attempts versus UGa, and 20 attempts vs. A&M. I love our coach. But, I maintain, that even with Mett, we didnt know who we were in terms of philosophy.
3. We recruit size, speed, and power. Yet we dont use it all. There are other ways to get the ball in your talent's hand besides throwing.
4. We threw the ball 296 times in 2013, and 276 times in 2015 (and that is without playing the Mckneese). Not a huge shift. Neither year constitutes and aggressive nor explosive offense.
Brandon's development has been fairly typical of college QBs who have started takings snaps as a freshman. I believe that the offensive woes are far more attributable to a system that does not match the personnel. You don't need elite QBs to win the SEC. Game managers can do the trick. However, when it has come to QBs being the deciding factors throughout their career (at least the last 8 years), the championships seem to lean in favor DT-QBs or/and PP of the "game managing variety".
You have a fanbase which seems to vomit when you mention the term "dual-threat", which to them means a guy who is guaranteed to take off running at the first sign of pressure. It is also a fanbase that rejoices at the words "pro style" and "pocket passer", and seem to think this style is the path to the promise land. A review of the last 8 season shows that DT quarterbacks have claimed 4 of the last 8 SEC championships (would be 5 if you counted JJ as a dual threat). In that same time frame Johnny Football, Cam, and Tebow won the Heisman.
2015 Jake Coker (PP-QB, some would say a game manager, non-prolific)
2014 Blake Simms (DT-QB, who also played RB at Bama)
2013 Nick Marshall (DT-QB, converted from CB at Auburn)
2012 AJ McCarron (Pocket-Passer labeled game manager)
2011 Jordan Jefferson &Jarrett Lee (LSU)
2010 Cam Newton (DT-QB, Auburn) - ONE-AND-DONE HEISMAN
2009 Greg McElroy (PP-QB, Alabama)
2008 Tim Tebow (DT-QB, Florida)
Other Notables
2011-2013 Johnny Manziel (DT-QB, Texas A&M) - Wins Heisman
2013-2015 Dak Prescott (DT-QB, Miss St.) - breaks almost every school record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dak_Prescott#School_records
2010 Stephen Garcia (DT-QB, South Carolina) - Wins the SEC East
In an effort to assign blame, LSU fans have oscillated between three theories:
1. Play calling. Miles is too conservative.
2. Failure to develop QBs.
3. Lately, its Brandon Harris' fault.
The latter of which, I take issue. National pundits have joined in the BH bash, apparently forgetting that it was not too long ago, that these same fans were calling for CLMs' heads. Even more interesting, is fans use of Mettenberger as the gold standard of LSU QBing. A review of the numbers shows that 2013 tigers throw about the same rate/attempts as did the 2015 tigers. Brandon Harris' numbers are not far off of Metts, given the fact that a Mckneese State game was not played this year.
Metts 2013 Stats show:
1. Over 1/3 of Metts passing yards were vs Non-Conference opponents (Furman, TCU, Kent, UAB) who had a combined record of 17-31. Our opponents combined record that year was an unimpressive 79-74.
2. Mett only threw a total of 10 TDs versus SEC opponents (12 versus non SEC), for a total of 1957 yards.
3. Play calling was too conservative through conference play, averaging a mere 25 attempts per game. Throwing the ball a total of 17 in a 17-6 win over Florida (who finished 4-8). These numbers are very similar to our attempt total last year.
The point is:
1. Mett did not have a prolific season. He was criticized for not being mobile enough and taking too many sacks. Though he was brilliant in a loss to UGA, he chocked in a 3 INT performance vs Ole Miss. Interestingly, throwing 2 red zone picks, which were easy throws. The same throws we like to criticize Brandon for not making.
2. We struggled with identity that year. With as many as 37 attempts versus UGa, and 20 attempts vs. A&M. I love our coach. But, I maintain, that even with Mett, we didnt know who we were in terms of philosophy.
3. We recruit size, speed, and power. Yet we dont use it all. There are other ways to get the ball in your talent's hand besides throwing.
4. We threw the ball 296 times in 2013, and 276 times in 2015 (and that is without playing the Mckneese). Not a huge shift. Neither year constitutes and aggressive nor explosive offense.
Brandon's development has been fairly typical of college QBs who have started takings snaps as a freshman. I believe that the offensive woes are far more attributable to a system that does not match the personnel. You don't need elite QBs to win the SEC. Game managers can do the trick. However, when it has come to QBs being the deciding factors throughout their career (at least the last 8 years), the championships seem to lean in favor DT-QBs or/and PP of the "game managing variety".
This post was edited on 7/23/16 at 4:30 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:18 pm to luvlsufootball
I have never blamed Harris and have firmly believed it was due to coaches not playing to his strengths. I have never understood taking a guy who doesn't fit your scheme and trying to shoehorn him into it.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:20 pm to AshLSU
Agreed. I see fans bashing the kid, and the numbers don't support the criticism. I'm pulling for him big time this year.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:24 pm to luvlsufootball
It's not just that the play calling is conservative. It's actually far too aggressive when they pass, almost everything is downfield. In today's football, short and intermediate routes are essential. The lack of a basic crossing route is what frustrates me most.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:39 pm to luvlsufootball
quote:
You have a fanbase which seems to vomit when you mention the term "dual-threat", which to them means a guy who is guaranteed to take off running at the first sign of pressure. It is also a fanbase that rejoices at the words "pro style" and "pocket passer", and seem to think this style is the path to the promise land.
I just dont think this is true at all. Plenty of people are fine with the pro style, but many want more spread tenancies. LSU's problem is, we try to put a DT QB in a pro style, and not give them assigned plays that utilize that strength.
Harris needs at 5-6 dedicated read option keepers a game. He's too good at it not to. Perhaps thats the plan, but his injury kept him from doing that last year.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:44 pm to SportTiger1
quote:
I just dont think this is true at all. Plenty of people are fine with the pro style, but many want more spread tenancies. LSU's problem is, we try to put a DT QB in a pro style, and not give them assigned plays that utilize that strength.
Harris needs at 5-6 dedicated read option keepers a game. He's too good at it not to. Perhaps thats the plan, but his injury kept him from doing that last year.
I agree for the most part SportTiger1. But this board (as well as the recruiting board) is filled with "no more DT comments". Other comments accuse BH of not being able to complete a 5 yard out. I see article-after-article chronicling BH's so-called struggles, while praising Mett. I just think that the criticism mis-directed.
This post was edited on 7/22/16 at 5:46 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:52 pm to luvlsufootball
People that criticize Harris really dont know shite about football.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 5:59 pm to Spaulding Smails
quote:
Harris really dont know shite about football.
I think people like to quote whatever they heard some one else say. One thing that will surely kill a thread... Is facts
Posted on 7/22/16 at 6:08 pm to prepsportsallday
Harris is going to surprise these doubters this year - bookmark it! Do these knuckleheads not remember Mett's improvement after settling in to the system. BH is our quarterback damnit... Get behind this LSU Tiger!
Posted on 7/22/16 at 6:23 pm to luvlsufootball
As others have stated, it isn't DTQBs people have a problem with. It's that we recruit them and then don't let them utilize their DUAL threat capabilities.
Maybe that's why some complain about DTs at lsu...because we continue to run a pro style offense with guys who never stood under center until they got to lsu.
Maybe that's why some complain about DTs at lsu...because we continue to run a pro style offense with guys who never stood under center until they got to lsu.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 6:23 pm to luvlsufootball
Double post
This post was edited on 7/22/16 at 6:25 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 6:33 pm to luvlsufootball
It's not fair, I admit it, but when someone like Manziel goes from almost getting kicked off the team at A&M to winning the Heisman the same season---and as a redshirt freshman, at that---one can see how a talented player who's been on the roster for three seasons should, at the very least, be competent enough to, say, routinely beat 1 on 1 coverage out wide when defenses are stacking 8 in the box against Fournette.
Not asking for much, IMO.
Edit: Forgot to add that this isn't so much a knock on BH as it is a statement of fact that this team----which is filthy loaded this year---deserves consistency at the QB position. College football history is full of talented teams that won titles due to competency at QB and superior talent elsewhere.
Not asking for much, IMO.
Edit: Forgot to add that this isn't so much a knock on BH as it is a statement of fact that this team----which is filthy loaded this year---deserves consistency at the QB position. College football history is full of talented teams that won titles due to competency at QB and superior talent elsewhere.
This post was edited on 7/22/16 at 6:35 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 7:04 pm to ffhouston
quote:
Not asking for much, IMO.
Not too much at all. Look at the numbers. There are not enough attempts. It's not as simple as throw and catch. You can't just throw fades and go routes every time someone stacks the box. Bama in the 2nd half of 2015, did more, jet sweeps and bubbles. These are sec corners, you don't just go deep on them at will.
Manziel was in a system that allowed him to be Manziel.
It's my opinion that we have consistency at the QB position. We need to do more with him
This post was edited on 7/22/16 at 7:08 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 7:11 pm to luvlsufootball
As to DT versus PP - the last SEC QBs to win the Heisman, were DT. Turn'em lose!
Posted on 7/22/16 at 7:19 pm to luvlsufootball
Look at it this way, would you rather have Mett or Harris under center to start this season?
Yea you can say numbers look similar all day, but like you mentioned about identity issues, Mett did not have the caliber of team Harris does. He did more with less, and I count the overall team.
Even though the 2013 team performed worse overall, it's clear that we could Trust Mett to make the throws. With Harris, we can never be sure.
It's more than just stats. It's the look and the feeling.
Yea you can say numbers look similar all day, but like you mentioned about identity issues, Mett did not have the caliber of team Harris does. He did more with less, and I count the overall team.
Even though the 2013 team performed worse overall, it's clear that we could Trust Mett to make the throws. With Harris, we can never be sure.
It's more than just stats. It's the look and the feeling.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 7:27 pm to beantown
quote:
Even though the 2013 team performed worse overall, it's clear that we could Trust Mett to make the throws. With Harris, we can never be sure. It's more than just stats. It's the look and the feeling.
Met gave me the FITS with his footwork. The guy could not move. I remember our loss in the chick-fa-la bowl 2012. 124 yds passing. Sacked 6 times. I remember screaming at the tv "just slide to your left". He Could not do it. Crazy thing was that Jeremy hill was killin Clemson. No thank you. Numbers never lie (NNL). Let Harris play his game, I'm going with him all day.
Posted on 7/22/16 at 7:39 pm to luvlsufootball
Harris was the only one out there throwing. If he saild it, or can't find the touch on the short pass. That's on him and his abilities.
Now the coaches recruit these guys and start them. But their play is on them.
No one here is giving the coaches credit for LF and his yardage. So why should it be diff for the QB? He still needs to make the throws. Even if it's only 17 times a game.
He didn't make them when they threw under 20, and he didn't make them when they called his number over 50.
Now the coaches recruit these guys and start them. But their play is on them.
No one here is giving the coaches credit for LF and his yardage. So why should it be diff for the QB? He still needs to make the throws. Even if it's only 17 times a game.
He didn't make them when they threw under 20, and he didn't make them when they called his number over 50.
This post was edited on 7/22/16 at 7:40 pm
Posted on 7/22/16 at 7:41 pm to luvlsufootball
Jesus Christ we need a fricking QB board
I'm tired of the same played out information and arguments regurgitated over and over and over every week
I'm tired of the same played out information and arguments regurgitated over and over and over every week
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