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re: Are we incapable of admitting that process matters?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 1:36 pm to H-Town Tiger
Posted on 11/29/10 at 1:36 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
Are you claiming that because he won 60 other games, the Tennessee game this year was not lucky?
Not quite, I'm just pointing out that over 78 games luck averages out - it's likely over 2 or 3 games luck averages out. Hell, a good luck win may never have a chance to happened if not for some exceedingly bad luck earlier in the game. But you just can't subtract all the good luck and dismiss the bad luck "on the margin" like you tried to do.
And then there is the point that another person brought up - it's hard to benefit from good luck when you're 17 points behind. Just the fact the Miles is in position to benefit when good (or take his licks when bad) fortune comes along says something.
but I guess I just don't like your use of the word luck. Could you call it lucky that we won against Tenn this year? Sure and I would not argue, but we had to be in position to take advantage of it.
I just think that talking about luck after 6 years of battle on the field is not valid - as a prominent coach once stated "they are what their record says they are"!
1
Posted on 11/29/10 at 1:42 pm to biglego
This is a great thread, it really is. Good discussion and with little or no Internet Tough Guy name-calling.
There are times when LSU football looks confused and undisciplined, and, at those times, I want to blame the HC.
I do sometimes wonder whether the LSU HC is a great coach or merely a good coach. The Posi Tigers and Nega Tigers both have points and arguments to make that make sense.
I don't stand with the Nega Tigers, not anymore, because "Fire Miles" is the wrong answer now.
I would like to see LSU football progressively get more disciplined and fundamentally sound under this HC regime. I hope everybody agrees, because, these characteristics of a football team do matter. If, over the proper amount of time, this HC can't produce a team that is clearly disciplined and fundamentally sound, I hope that he's held to account for that failure.
There are times when LSU football looks confused and undisciplined, and, at those times, I want to blame the HC.
I do sometimes wonder whether the LSU HC is a great coach or merely a good coach. The Posi Tigers and Nega Tigers both have points and arguments to make that make sense.
I don't stand with the Nega Tigers, not anymore, because "Fire Miles" is the wrong answer now.
I would like to see LSU football progressively get more disciplined and fundamentally sound under this HC regime. I hope everybody agrees, because, these characteristics of a football team do matter. If, over the proper amount of time, this HC can't produce a team that is clearly disciplined and fundamentally sound, I hope that he's held to account for that failure.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 1:51 pm to biglego
quote:
but damn LSU should be able to push McNeese around.
So now this game's result was ever in question? This is seriously what you idiots come up with after a 10 win season?
McNeese was pushed around plenty, just not to a satisfactory degree for some of yall.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 1:54 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
You see, the action by Miles forced Tenn either to make a hard substitution or have a 280 pound end cover Randle.
Now, the definition of luck is that it just occurs, and is not influenced by ones actions.
This is so right. A short punt that bounces and hits a kicking team player in the back just before it touches a receiving team player is more of a "lucky" occurrence than the above situation.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 2:20 pm to Tiger JJ
When has Les ever had les's than a 2 loss season?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 2:42 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
Not quite, I'm just pointing out that over 78 games luck averages out - it's likely over 2 or 3 games luck averages out. Hell, a good luck win may never have a chance to happened if not for some exceedingly bad luck earlier in the game. But you just can't subtract all the good luck and dismiss the bad luck "on the margin" like you tried to do.
You still don't seem to understand what I said. You keep using 78 games when that is not the relevant figure. You first have to subtract out all the creampuff games that even a deaf, dumb and blind person like Curley Hallman would go undefeated against.
Next, you should factor in talent. I and basically everyone else says that Miles' big strength is recruiting. There's no doubt that when LSU fields teams against Vanderbilt and Kentucky, the overwhelming talent advantage goes to LSU. So LSU should be expected to win those games - or at least to lose very few of them.
The question at hand is ON THE MARGIN. Of those 10-15 big games over the course of the 6 years, was LSU more prepared or less prepared. I think that for regular season games, LSU is way less prepared. Now, for postseason games, he does truly seem to have his shite together. It's a weird dynamic.
quote:
but I guess I just don't like your use of the word luck. Could you call it lucky that we won against Tenn this year? Sure and I would not argue, but we had to be in position to take advantage of it.
As established, it also means LSU was in a position to lose also. The UT game was exactly this: a total botch job that was rescued by luck. Pure and simple. Very few (if any) other elite coaches allow that much clock to burn in a situation like that. Les should have had plenty of time to run his Ridley play without the drama.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 2:48 pm to Tiger JJ
UT, UF and Bama all have had better recruits over the last 4 years. LSU did better than each. The process is working fine. Get rid of Crowton.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 2:53 pm to C
quote:
UT, UF and Bama all have had better recruits over the last 4 years. LSU did better than each.
Pretty sure Bama went undefeated and won an undisputed national title last year.
quote:
Get rid of Crowton.
I got no problems with that.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 2:56 pm to LNCHBOX
[quote]but damn LSU should be able to push McNeese around.
So now this game's result was ever in question? This is seriously what you idiots come up with after a 10 win season?
[quote]
LSU wasnt gonna lose, but dont pretend like it was a well-played game. Nor the LaTech game last year. Or the Troy game in 2008.
If you were happy with the way LSU played this year, then I assume you are on the "keep Crowton" bandwagon?
So now this game's result was ever in question? This is seriously what you idiots come up with after a 10 win season?
[quote]
LSU wasnt gonna lose, but dont pretend like it was a well-played game. Nor the LaTech game last year. Or the Troy game in 2008.
If you were happy with the way LSU played this year, then I assume you are on the "keep Crowton" bandwagon?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:01 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
Get rid of Crowton.
quote:
I got no problems with that.
This is why I'm willing to give Miles support for now. He is a CEO coach. This was known when we hired him. His teams will perform as well as their coordinators.
I would fault him for not remedying this problem sooner, but I have heard conflicting accounts as to whether he allowed Crowton to stay or whether his hand was forced.
This season this team was plagued with having one of the worst offensive coordinators in football calling the plays. I'm willing to see what happens when a change is made.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:02 pm to Tiger JJ
The process and the product are what is important. Ask yourself if you believe the product on the field is worth 4 million a year? If you think the product is worth that then keep Miles, if not Fire his Arss. I support the latter.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:03 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
Next, you should factor in talent. I and basically everyone else says that Miles' big strength is recruiting. There's no doubt that when LSU fields teams against Vanderbilt and Kentucky, the overwhelming talent advantage goes to LSU. So LSU should be expected to win those games - or at least to lose very few of them.
ahh, but do you take into account what other coaches do in these games as well? do you factor in u.a.b., u.l.m, utah for saban? do you factor in ole miss, miss st, miami ohio, sout carolina for meyer ? baylor, kansas st, u.c.l.a. for brown, ect. ect. ect.
quote:
As established, it also means LSU was in a position to lose also. The UT game was exactly this: a total botch job that was rescued by luck. Pure and simple.
is it good luck or bad luck that miles has lost less than 3 game in the s.e.c. 5 out of six years but only got 1 s.e.c. title. however, saban won a s.e.c. title with 3 s.e.c. l's. Now, U.S.C.e/steve s. has a chance with 3 l's.
is it luck that bama had to block two fg's last year to be utenn? florida blocked three against u.s.c.e in 2006? you only see the luck for against your team. every team and coach has it.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:07 pm to dos crystal
quote:
is it luck that bama had to block two fg's last year to be utenn? florida blocked three against u.s.c.e in 2006? you only see the luck for against your team. every team and coach has it.
But LSU has to do shite like that to win any game against any SEC team. LSU scrapes by every game, every year. Maybe thats a good thing, but it sure looks bad. I dont know if any of it is bc of "luck". I think Les has been fricked by refs more than most anyone else---that would be bad luck.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:10 pm to dos crystal
quote:
ahh, but do you take into account what other coaches do in these games as well? do you factor in u.a.b., u.l.m, utah for saban? do you factor in ole miss, miss st, miami ohio, sout carolina for meyer ? baylor, kansas st, u.c.l.a. for brown, ect. ect. ect.
Sure.
quote:
is it good luck or bad luck that miles has lost less than 3 game in the s.e.c. 5 out of six years but only got 1 s.e.c. title. however, saban won a s.e.c. title with 3 s.e.c. l's. Now, U.S.C.e/steve s. has a chance with 3 l's.
is it luck that bama had to block two fg's last year to be utenn? florida blocked three against u.s.c.e in 2006? you only see the luck for against your team. every team and coach has it.
Yes, luck will always have an effect. That's precisely the point of why the process is so important. If you have bad luck + bad process, then you have no chance.
I don't like falling back on this one, but what is your legitimate explanation for Miles running around like a chicken with its head cut off calling for a timeout in that first home game of his back in 2005? I'm not sure I've seen someone like Saban every do even one thing that stupid, yet Miles has a laundry list. I have long speculated that he suffers from panic attacks or something. i.e. he isn't necessarily a "bad" coach; he just has a hard time dealing with really fast pressure situations.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:16 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Talent, as much as no one wants to admit it, is pretty damn close in all schools with exception to MSU
AUB and ARKY are not on the same level of talent as LSU.
you're just making excuses now.
LSU has the talent on offense and defense that should put them up with the best in the nation. The coaching simply lets them down.
ARKY and AUB benefit from having 2 excellent QBs, but also have very good offensive coaches that put their players in position to win, with inferior talent.
MSU's talent isnt close to LSU's, and they have been competitive in just about every game this year. Shows what good coaching can do.
This post was edited on 11/29/10 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:31 pm to Lester Earl
In all fairness, and I probably agree with you in this topic, the QB can change an entire team. Arky and AU are close enough in talent to LSU that a good QB makes them a better team. Overall talent differences are masked by the QB play.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:43 pm to biglego
quote:
In all fairness, and I probably agree with you in this topic, the QB can change an entire team. Arky and AU are close enough in talent to LSU that a good QB makes them a better team. Overall talent differences are masked by the QB play.
Truer words were never spoken. Take Cam Newton out of AU and Mallet out of Arky and they are TOTALLY different teams. If JJ or Lee were the QB on AU and Arky they would not be 10-2. Outside the QB position, LSU is better than both of those teams!
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:45 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
I don't like falling back on this one, but what is your legitimate explanation for Miles running around like a chicken with its head cut off calling for a timeout in that first home game of his back in 2005? I'm not sure I've seen someone like Saban every do even one thing that stupid, yet Miles has a laundry list. I have long speculated that he suffers from panic attacks or something. i.e. he isn't necessarily a "bad" coach; he just has a hard time dealing with really fast pressure situations.
it's because you choose not to see what saban does wrong. Just last year, at bama, he was inside the lsu 10 yard line in the 4th qtr and game on the line. he called time out. out of the time out he sent 12 players on the field. broke the huddle with 12 men and got the flag.
At arkansas in 2002. he kicks off. we stop the return man inside the 20 with 18 seconds left. we are up by 5 or 6. his defense is confused, matt jones throws a 60 yard bomb. two plays later and no time left Arkansas scores the winning t.d.
again, 2004, his defense is confused running around, not sure what to do, he doesn't call time out, iowa hits a 60 yard bomb as time expires. iowa wins.
i'm sure if you follow him closer, there are more. it all boils down to you thinking he's a great coach, which he is, therefore you dismiss those things. You don't believe miles is, therefore, those situations are one's you can point to, to confirm your conclusion. If you thought, and truly believed miles was a great coach, you would dismiss those things as well.
let's not forget texas last year. they had a second put back on the clock with national championship on the line. things like this happen to other coaches as well. we just don't take notice.
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:52 pm to dos crystal
quote:
it's because you choose not to see what saban does wrong. Just last year, at bama, he was inside the lsu 10 yard line in the 4th qtr and game on the line. he called time out. out of the time out he sent 12 players on the field. broke the huddle with 12 men and got the flag.
That is an execution mistake. Not the same thing. (Although I'm not defending it as good or anything).
quote:
At arkansas in 2002. he kicks off. we stop the return man inside the 20 with 18 seconds left. we are up by 5 or 6. his defense is confused, matt jones throws a 60 yard bomb. two plays later and no time left Arkansas scores the winning t.d.
Again, not even remotely comparable to not even knowing the rules of the game.
quote:
again, 2004, his defense is confused running around, not sure what to do, he doesn't call time out, iowa hits a 60 yard bomb as time expires. iowa wins.
That play happened for one reason: horrific holding that wasn't called.
quote:
i'm sure if you follow him closer, there are more. it all boils down to you thinking he's a great coach, which he is, therefore you dismiss those things. You don't believe miles is, therefore, those situations are one's you can point to, to confirm your conclusion. If you thought, and truly believed miles was a great coach, you would dismiss those things as well.
You simply can't come up with a single thing that Saban or any other elite coach has done that was as stupid as not knowing the rules of the game.
quote:
let's not forget texas last year. they had a second put back on the clock with national championship on the line. things like this happen to other coaches as well. we just don't take notice.
What was that one again?
Posted on 11/29/10 at 3:53 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
let's not forget texas last year. they had a second put back on the clock with national championship on the line
That was the proper call.
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