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Started By
Message
re: A little Synopsis of how fan bases react to the possibility of a downturn
Posted on 1/9/15 at 10:56 am to ShortyRob
Posted on 1/9/15 at 10:56 am to ShortyRob
quote:
Declines in football are a lot like economic declines. By the time everyone recognizes it, it's too late. Step 1) Seeds of decline are sown. Very few obvious outward signs, but some errors or simply negative factor have occurred that will eventually show symptoms. A few people may see them, but very few. And, for the most part, they are made fun of by those who think they're crazy.(at this point, they might be crazy) Step 2) First real signs that the seeds have taken root. Still, most people perceive the slight decline as a mere blip. They expect full recovery and relatively quick.(recovery isn't out of the question) Step 3) Signs are no longer really deniable but there will be a few hold outs who swear that things are going to turn around and demand that no policies be significantly changed. "It's just a cycle and no individuals or policies are to blame".(only fools still deny the problem) Step 4) Any moron knows the bottom has fallen out. Everyone in step three disappears. Pretty soon, everyone you meet claims to have fallen into Step 1.(not even possible to deny the problem) Now that I think of it, this is sort of common in all things. IE, try to find someone now who admits to having liked Vanilla Ice. Dude sold millions of albums to apparently, no one.
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Posted on 1/9/15 at 10:59 am to ShortyRob
The short version is Miles is not a horrible coach. He has simply lost his edge and the program has become such too large in stature for him to handle.
It is similar to giving a Ferrari to a sixteen year old. It's fun for awhile but eventually he wrecks it.
It is similar to giving a Ferrari to a sixteen year old. It's fun for awhile but eventually he wrecks it.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 11:14 am to ShortyRob
quote:
Speaking for myself, only a few of the "pumpers" drive me nuts. That would be the few that seem to f'n follow every last mildly negative thread around and refuse to acknowledge even the slightest bit of truth in them. It's like they're exercising some sort of duty to quash dissent.
I'll start here. Want to get me into a thread...use the term "pumper." Drives me up the fricking wall, because half the time it's used it's used to lambast someone who say s frickING ANYTHING positive about the LSU program. And newsflash for those not keeping track...for a long arse time now LSU has been near the tippy top of college football's elite. Saying something positive about a positive thing is NOT pumping sunshine! Drives me crazy... When I think sunshine pumping, I think of this guy.
There is not one LSU fan, despite what suggestions are tossed out, that likes Miles MORE THAN the LSU program. No one is here, as far as I know, getting paid to shill for the man over the program. As much as I like the guy, Miles is only the hired help here. We're LSU. At the end of the day, we'll still be here as coaches come and go. It will always be that way.
quote:
And, in any case, if there is one thing I'm tired of from the "pumper" camp is the portrayal that somehow, a fan who is unhappy with a coach is "happy" when they turn out right. That shite fricking chaps my hide. If we won the damned national title the next three years in a row and every pumper came in to tell us they told us so, do these assholes really think I'm going to be "mad" about it?
Sure...I can see that point. And yet, I know actual LSU fans that behave in exactly this way. The reason is simple...they made a decision a long time ago (I've referenced already but it's post TENN 2005) and they were very vocal about how much Miles sucked. They begrudgingly went along with the success even though they were incredibly critical with every eve minor setback. They were the first to throw troubled players under the bus and label them Miles' fault. They were the first to claim that if Miles wasn't so terrible, LSU should have won more titles...as if it's just that simple. And they've perked up with every loss or season which most agree were disappointing.
Does that fit all fans who dislike Miles? Of course not. But there are plenty for whom, sadly, that description fits like a glove. For some, being right is more important. Some would rather lose so that they can get the change they've wanted since game #2 of the Miles era back in 2005.
Rob...honestly, I'm just tied of this whole thing. I was drawn to Tiger Roar way back in early 2000 and I love the fact that I was able to discuss LSU football with many more fans than I could before. We were there because of our mutual love of The Tigers. That's changed...and the funny thing is it's changed for the worse despite the fact that LSU has gone on the longest sustained run of success in the program's history. You'd think fans would be happy! Hell...some could not even be happy in 2011!
I miss when LSU fans came together to enjoy what makes the program special and to rally around our shared interest. I miss when it was us against them. More often than not, it's been us against us. When I go into defense mode, that's what you're seeing...my displeasure for what we've become a fan base, not some love of Miles over the program.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 11:16 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:I'd like to note that I MAY have typed the word "pumper" five times in my life and I suspect at least 2-3 of those were like this. Just when I was discussing the subject. Not a fan.
I'll start here. Want to get me into a thread...use the term "pumper."
Posted on 1/9/15 at 11:24 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:There is a difference between someone coming and telling you they "told you so" and someone being HAPPY LSU sucked(if that happens).
Sure...I can see that point. And yet, I know actual LSU fans that behave in exactly this way. The reason is simple...they made a decision a long time ago (I've referenced already but it's post TENN 2005) and they were very vocal about how much Miles sucked.
That's the problem. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Miles implodes. Well, let's be honest. Some folks are going to say they "told you so".
That doesn't mean they are "cheering" LSU's demise.
I WANT to be wrong about Miles. I would RATHER be wrong than get to tell you "I told you so". But yeah, if what I think is very possible occurs, I'm probably gonna tell you I told you so.
I mean, I'm pretty sure that the Miami fans that were "right" about Larry Coker wish they hadn't been!!!!!
Given a choice, I'd love to be talking about this 10 years and two more Miles national titles from now. That I don't expect that to happen doesn't mean I would be pissed it did.
Speaking for myself. Yeah. I've probably had a low opinion of Miles' game day shenanigans for a LONG time. That the dude had some sort of rabbit's foot in his pocket did not really negate some of the stupidity.
But, I didn't REALLY jump of his train until how he handled the 2011 season and interestingly, I was WAY OFF THE MILES TRAIN even before the MNC loss.
He went from being a guy who I thought was a poor game day coach to a guy I just flat didn't like. His entire handling of that QB situation was just unseemly to me. It was after that that I asserted that if I had a son that was offered by LSU, he would NOT play for Miles. I simply don't like the man any longer. THAT most certainly is a shift from when I would merely be aggravated by shite like the Ole Miss clock debacle.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 11:59 am to ShortyRob
quote:
That doesn't mean they are "cheering" LSU's demise.
That's true...for some. For others, it means exactly that.
Look...I certainly see your point and I'd agree with it in most cases when you'd make it. I think this LSU situation IS different because of the dynamic that is Nick Saban having been such a huge personality at LSU and then coming back to even GREATER success within our own division. I'd say that many, if not most, of those who have been VERY anti-Miles since day one are guys who simply never got over Nick Saban. They're like jilted boyfriends who can't get past the fact that the girl they dated a while ago who was super hot went and got EVEN hotter and started dating the guy down the street they fricking hate. For some, Miles COULD never be good enough, regardless of what he actually did. It's why many were unhappy during the run in 2011...remember that? They'd have to find things to bitch about during that incredible season! That's amazing to me.
For others, I think they'd simply prefer Miles to completely tank so they can hit the reset button and get to start over. I see their point but again can't understand it. I get why you'd technically need the program to tank in order to get the change you want, but it would actually have to tank...which seem, bad?
quote:
I WANT to be wrong about Miles. I would RATHER be wrong than get to tell you "I told you so". But yeah, if what I think is very possible occurs, I'm probably gonna tell you I told you so.
See my first post in this thread about this. Doesn't it depend when you started clinging this bell though? Very few coaches go out on top and on their own terms. Eventually even the great ones stay a bit too long. There were fans clamoring for Miles head in 2005...will they be right if/when the wheels finally do come off, 11 or 12 years later? What about those in 2008 or 2009? Or those that at least waited until the smoke cleared from 01/09/12? There's that old saying about a broken clock...
quote:
I mean, I'm pretty sure that the Miami fans that were "right" about Larry Coker wish they hadn't been!!!!!
Beat me to it...Miles has been called Larry Coker since day one. Can we all agree the guy is NOT that? Those that called him that in our fan base were wrong, correct? if they never stopped calling him shitty, do they get to jump on the bandwagon if/when it actually comes to pass, or would they fall into the above category of eventually being right after being wrong most of the time?
quote:
ut, I didn't REALLY jump of his train until how he handled the 2011 season and interestingly, I was WAY OFF THE MILES TRAIN even before the MNC loss.
See my above comments on this. I'll never understand being upset about 2011...ever. MAYBE if Lee was my kid...maybe. Other than that, that season was fricking glorious and one of my greatest memories will be standing with my son looking up at the scoreboard and seeing 12-0 on the scoreboard in Tiger stadium and knowing I was there for that! Wonderful. What happened in the NCG, as hard as that was, will never tarnish the season for me.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 12:41 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:I enjoyed every last minute of the football.
See my above comments on this. I'll never understand being upset about 2011
quote:Shitty is shitty. What he did that year was shitty. Oh, he won football games, but you can still be a shitty person and win. That's not unheard of.
MAYBE if Lee was my kid...maybe
quote:Meh. Losing it sucked but no, it doesn't take away a hell of a season.
What happened in the NCG, as hard as that was, will never tarnish the season for me.
That Miles threw in the fricking towel sort of blew though.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 12:46 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:I was a regular on TigerRoar. And before that, GEAUX.COM.
I was drawn to Tiger Roar way back in early 2000
You remember Bill D? And, if I recall, there were a couple of insufferable AU fans on that board.
Oh, and how bout Mr. Wonderful???
Posted on 1/9/15 at 1:08 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Shitty is shitty. What he did that year was shitty. Oh, he won football games, but you can still be a shitty person and win. That's not unheard of.
I guess we just disagree here, and I really don't want to dredge that old argument again. I'll simply say that I never felt that Miles did anything but play the guy he thought gave the team the best chance of winning...others can disagree with his assessment, but I always thought that claims that one guy "deserved" to treated such and such a way was weird considering we were talking about college aged guys. Would I have liked to see Lee at least TRY on January 9th? Sure...at some point I'd have allowed T-Bob fricking Hebert to get under center if it meant that or being shut out. But that doesn't mean I think Miles was a bad guy for his handling of those two guys...never did see it that way myself.
But then, I was kind of in a similar role then as I find myself now, wasn't I? I never thought a ton of Jefferson, other than he was the best option we had. I didn't go all in with the guy until he got into the bar fight thing and our "fans" suddenly tripped over each other to see who could throw him under the bus first. The reason? They didn't think he was a good QB, and they wanted their choice to play. It was the same shitty behavior that lead many of the same guys I'd bet to cheer LOUDLY in Tiger stadium several years earlier when Lee was playing badly and he got hurt forcing Miles to play...JEFFERSON! So I found myself then having to stand up for a guy that I didn't think was a great QB but who I thought deserved to be treated like a Tiger, by Tiger fans. I found the behavior of our fans far worse than that of Miles who was simply sticking, rightly or wrongly, with the guy he had felt had, for several years, given the team the best opportunity to win.
quote:
That Miles threw in the fricking towel sort of blew though.
Going down without altering anything bothered me, even if I felt in my heart that there was no alteration that was gonna change our fate that night. Even then I don't think he'd have earned any credit from fans, though. Can you imagine if he'd have put Lee in and it would have gone the same way? The argument then would have been, "Well...if he had not pulled him earlier in the year he'd have played better, etc..."
So...I'll completely agree with you in one aspect. It's shocking how poor LSU's QB play has been in general most of the time Miles has been here. I'm not talking wide open Texas Tech nonsense. I mean capable, efficient QB play that can be a help rather than a hindrance. The whole Lee/JJ thing is a great example of what happens when you have no solid options. I'm hoping we're not still in this same boat again next season...
Posted on 1/9/15 at 2:13 pm to ShortyRob
Questions. How do you define a "downturn"? How do you know when you are in step 1 or 2 of a "downturn" instead of a temporary downturn?
Posted on 1/9/15 at 2:29 pm to White Tiger
quote:It's both at that point. The seeds of the downturn are there. They could well grow but they aren't irrevocable.
Questions. How do you define a "downturn"? How do you know when you are in step 1 or 2 of a "downturn" instead of a temporary downturn?
Think of it like bad spending habits. A person gets their first credit card and maxes it out instantly. Then the same on the second. They haven't buried themselves yet but they are showing a troubling propensity. Maybe they realize they screwed up and set about paying that shite off. Or, maybe they keep going until there are so many, there's no recovering.
If they bury themselves, everyone would rightly say it started with that first card. That the seeds of failure were there.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 2:47 pm to ShortyRob
Since you chose to use the economy in your analogy (which in some ways, is appropriate), you can also go further and say:
Economies go up and down (and the same thing can be said about college football programs).
In a more micro-scale, companies (like football teams) have good years and bad years.
Some companies that were once great go out of business for several reasons (fail to adapt to changes in technology or changes in tastes, or changes in _______).
Some companies that were once great survive but only as a shell of their once great self.
Some companies can be resurrected (think Apple).
The long standing and successful companies (understanding they will have good years and bad years) adapt to changes in personnel and/or market conditions, etc. and have the culture and attitude to “get up off the mat” when times get tough and have the desire to fight for another day.
And along the lines of your “Les Miles finding another job as an OC” comment…. many CEO’s are successful at managing (coaching) an entire organization but they may not have the skill set to be the VP in charge of Product Engineering, or the CFO, or the _______ - this is very common.
Personally, I am not sure where the program stands based upon the above list because I don't play there, I don't coach there, and thus I have not been involved in any of their meetings or planning/strategy sessions.
Economies go up and down (and the same thing can be said about college football programs).
In a more micro-scale, companies (like football teams) have good years and bad years.
Some companies that were once great go out of business for several reasons (fail to adapt to changes in technology or changes in tastes, or changes in _______).
Some companies that were once great survive but only as a shell of their once great self.
Some companies can be resurrected (think Apple).
The long standing and successful companies (understanding they will have good years and bad years) adapt to changes in personnel and/or market conditions, etc. and have the culture and attitude to “get up off the mat” when times get tough and have the desire to fight for another day.
And along the lines of your “Les Miles finding another job as an OC” comment…. many CEO’s are successful at managing (coaching) an entire organization but they may not have the skill set to be the VP in charge of Product Engineering, or the CFO, or the _______ - this is very common.
Personally, I am not sure where the program stands based upon the above list because I don't play there, I don't coach there, and thus I have not been involved in any of their meetings or planning/strategy sessions.
This post was edited on 1/9/15 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 1/9/15 at 2:57 pm to Fratigerguy
ShortyRob loved Lee madly, truly, deeply.
Miles broke his heart by choosing Jefferson.
A broken heart is a difficult thing to mend.
ShortyRob will never forgive Miles. Never.
Miles broke his heart by choosing Jefferson.
A broken heart is a difficult thing to mend.
ShortyRob will never forgive Miles. Never.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 3:11 pm to Salviati
His posts from 09 were identical to today. Program is in the shitter. Miles will be done in a few years. 6 loss seasons are on the way. I didn't even look at '08, '10...or even much of '09. Same. Exact. shite. You'd think he'd learn...Posted on 1/9/15 at 3:13 pm to Salviati
quote:Meh. He was OK. Good luck finding any post of mine that says he was especially good.
ShortyRob loved Lee madly, truly, deeply.
quote:For how he handled 2011? Unless he owns a time machine, there's no undoing it. But, if he turns around and kills it the next few years, I'll give him credit. No problem.
ShortyRob will never forgive Miles. Never
Posted on 1/9/15 at 4:35 pm to Fratigerguy
quote:
Fratigerguy
Huh...that's some pretty good work. I'll be honest, I must have missed those rants from Rob in the past, but that's EXACTLY what was addressed in the very first response by Jim Rockford in this thread when he said:
quote:
OTOH, just like in the economy, there are always doomsayers predicting calamity. Eventually something bad does happen, and they say "see, I was right all along!"
Rob has been screaming the sky is falling well before 2011...well before Miles' handling of the QB situation that year. I'd be curious to know just how far back these complaints go...anything further back than that?
At this point, as has been said, if you say the sky is falling long enough one day you'll probably be right. The issue becomes were you right, or just a malcontent with an enormous amount of willpower to keep it up for the long haul.
After reading those things, all I can think of is this guy...
Posted on 1/10/15 at 8:00 am to ShortyRob
Thanks, Shorty. I will wait patiently for the LSU offense to arrive.
Posted on 1/10/15 at 8:15 am to ShortyRob
quote:
Yeah yeah. I heard the same shite under Dinardo. Same shite under Archer. Same shite under Hallman. Hell, same shite under Saban.
fixt
Basically if a coach doesn't go undefeated every year, we're settling for mediocrity.
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