re: Gunner Kiel Back on LSU Campus Today!

boo this man

WARNING: This post has nothing to do with Gunner Kiel. It only responds to a post in the thread.

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I'm not sure how old rocket31 is, but if he was watching ND in the late 80s and in the 90s,

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It would be unfair to hold his youthfulness against him. My recollections of Ara do not include him spewing expletives and ND's carefully managed image is not enhanced by such uncouth, out-of-control behavior as Kelly demonstrates.

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As for coaching style, Kelly just doesn't look pretty when he screams

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Who does?

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There is more than 1 way to teach and motivate. As much as I like Miles, his style is not the only effective style.

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You are right about that. My post admitted that even the "military discipline" can be effective in certain circumstances. But he suggested that screaming, yelling, humiliating, being a jackass was a part of football culture -- anything else is dancing. Just because there are some coaches with anger issues symptomatic of neurotic mental ill-health, is neither cause to embrace them or to characterize college football with those properties. In a Kelly/Saban vs Miles comparison we have 2 opposite styles that shed light on motivational pedagogy in general.

Saban's players are in a constant state of fear -- fear of public humiliation, fear of authority figure disapproval, the fear of being spanked. No one knows when a mistake will occur and the petty tyrant will explode. But humans learn from mistakes; no one ever learned anything by making 100% on a test. Mistakes are teaching opportunities, not opportunities to vent pent up anger having nothing whatsoever to do with the mistake. But it is true that fear is a strong motivator, but it inhibits rather than enhances learning -- the mind has competing thoughts and feelings with the subject at-hand when someone is in your face. This style is fear-based; it pervades our schools beyond the coaches. It is always fundamentally destructive even if it achieves the tyrant's objectives. It offends human dignity, threatens self-esteem, and produces a distorted self-concept. Discussing this in terms football is a fairly innocuous thing, but examples of this mindset extends from Sr. Unagunda, who rapped your knuckles with a ruler, to a Joe Stalin. But even more sinister is that this mindset permeates our society. The so abused become the abusers. They value it. It's just part of the culture, they say. In the parlance of the field, they are advocating negative discipline.

In my high school the Prefect of Discipline had a paddle named Charley. Charley had the "respect" of all-state, indeed, all-American football players. Two of the finest people it was my honor to call friends, Butch Duhe and Glenn Smith, two outstanding Tigers from yesteryear who carved their names in LSU history, were great men in spite of Charley. The mindset here is not frequently fatal, but it scars us, makes us less than we can be. Being an underclassman, Butch's locker in the gym was under mine and if he had left the field before me and was blocking my access to my locker, a swift kick in the butt would cause him to dutifully move out of the way, it embarrasses me to admit. We were chatting in the music building by the amphitheater a few days before he passed away. We were laughing about how dumb all that was. He was a forgiving soul; he'd done the same thing when he was a senior. The mindset is self-perpetuating. We had both fallen under the influence of Charley. That style can certainly be effective, but it has a cost and that cost is to our humanity.

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For rocket31, I bet he would say that Ty Willingham was calm and reassuring. How far did that get him?

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It did not net him a lot of wins for sure and if that is all one values, it did not advance him very far. On the other hand, we do not know how he impacted the inner lives of his players. We do know that fear-based motivation is harmful to the individual and the society. When a parent or a teacher is shaping a child's behavior and especially inappropriate behavior (future criminal behavior), the teacher can use negative discipline, a threat, and it will be effective -- as long as the threat is active and present. But as soon as the teacher leaves the room, the class goes crazy. They have not been taught self-discipline. Their self-concepts remain ill-defined, their innate inner values remain dormant, not drawn out of them. This is the meaning of educate (Latin educere to draw out, from e- + ducere to lead). Inducators like Saban are clueless about the role of an educator. The social ramifications of this basic misunderstanding cannot be overstated.

Do you want as a neighbor a guy who will not rob you because he is afraid of being caught and sent to jail as Bubba's biatch? Or do you want a neighbor whose self-concept tells him he is not a thief. Sooner or later you are going to leave on a vacation. Which neighbor do you want knowing that?
His motive for not robbing you is not trivial. And the motivational approach used by his mentors in his youth makes all of the difference.

Coach Miles is an educator; he draws out the best in his players. Remember Saban's last season at LSU was not world shaking and Coach Miles did better with Saban's players than Saban did. Of course, if every coach used positive discipline, half of them would still lose every week. It does not guarantee wins; it guarantees the players he recruited are developing healthily, not being thwarted in life, not being motivated by fear. Both Coach Miles and Coach Dale Brown are examples of the Pilonian Paradigm of pedagogy -- after Dr. Grace Pilon, who Educational Leadership called "the education genius of our time." Dr. Pilon was often a guest of Coach Brown at the PMAC. Her philosophy and psychology of education as well as scores of techniques for employing positive discipline point the way for reforming our dysfunctional schools and having a happy, healthy, and fulfilled population.

When we casually dismiss a Kelly or a Saban, or accept them because they meet a narrow definition of success (just win, Baby), that simply means we have internalized a false value from without and have not yet outgrown Charley. We are not yet fully liberated from the residual fear our society foists upon us from the cradle in the cause of controlling us, no matter how. There is a better, more effective way. 12-0!

didnt make to Vandy after leaving LSU...might come back later, will have to wait and see

Bozo - great post.

I agree that it is probably down to ND and LSU. Kiel previously committed to Indiana, probably to stay home and try to be the hometown hero and get that program going. But he realized how small time Indiana was, and decommitted. He probably harbors the same small time concerns with Vandy.

LSU and Notre Dame are both big time programs. Miles can tell him that he can immediately be a part of a national title caliber program, and play against the best competition. The drawbacks are distance and emphasis on the running game (although he will be playing in a more pro-style offense).

Kelly is probably telling him that he runs a QB-centric system, that ND is a QB away from being a 10 win team, and Kiel could be the guy that gets them going again. They won 8 games this year with a bad QB in Rees (terrible arm and no mobility). With a good QB, they would have won 10 games. Plus he is close to home. Downsides are that Kelly is not proven on the elite stage yet, and ND has made a string of bad coaching hires so who's to say that Kelly will get it fixed?

I sort of think LSU is going to win this battle. He seems to be looking for a reason not to pick ND. That's my take.

Any update on his visit? I saw a post that he cancelled on Vandy this weekend (suppose to reschedule?) - I'd like to think that's good news for LSU.

Supposedly Tigerbait.com has an update on the visit - can anyone provide some detail?

Not on national tv.

I'm guessing that none of you 'tards have ever been to South Bend...it is a dump!!!!!

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I'm guessing that none of you 'tards have ever been to South Bend...it is a dump!!!!!

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I have. The football experience isn't even close to LSU.

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I'm guessing that none of you 'tards have ever been to South Bend...it is a dump!!!!!

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I read an article, unrelated to football, that said there is no reason to ever visit south bend unless you are going to a game...that even retired people get bored there.