- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Power Home HVAC with Portable Gen (Part 2: MicroAir 368 Review)
Posted on 10/17/21 at 9:24 pm
Posted on 10/17/21 at 9:24 pm
Finally managed to get 2 of these units for use on my 3-ton compressors. I'll give y'all the data for each:
American Standard (2003) 3-ton:
Nameplate LRA: 87A
Nameplate RLA: 15.3A
With Amrad Hard Start Kit: 30.67A (starting current) on Kobalt meter
First run on Micro Air: 36.8A (on meter), 48A (in app)
Data from the Bluetooth App after 5 learning cycles:
Rheem (2012) 3-ton:
Nameplate LRA: 79A
Nameplate RLA: 16.7A
With Amrad Hard Start Kit: 35.35A (starting current) on Kobalt meter
First run on Micro Air: 36.8A (on meter), 48A (in app)
Data from Bluetooth App after 5 learning cycles:
I also purchased some weatherproof enclosures for them from PolyCase.com (never heard of them before but excellent selections and customer service). The seller told me these soft starters are weatherproof but that sunlight will eventually take its toll so I figured another enclosure would help with that. I can recommend a bigger one for anyone looking to purchase these soft starters because mine were a bit small:
So what are my final conclusions?
1. I love being able to see real-time run data and how many cycles my units go through. It was a reminder to me that I need more insulation
but also good to know the units are doing their job.
2. Even though the figures are similar with the Amrad hard starter (my meter may also be a bit off) and the Micro Air I can tell a measurable difference from inside my house. With no starting aid on the compressors the lights dimmed considerably when either unit kicked on. With the hard starters it was noticeable but not dramatic like before. With the Micro Air units the lights dimming inside is gone.
3. The Micro Air starter actually turns on the compressor fan first then starts the compressor after about 5 seconds. It further reduces the jolt on your home panel by not starting the compressor simultaneously with the air handler blower and the compressor fan.
4. The main reason I bought this was to aid my home generator in not bogging down on startup of my units. Do I overall think it's worth it? I'm honestly impressed with the Amrad hard starters ( https://amradmanufacturing.com/products/turbo-easy-start-5/) and would recommend them since they are cheaper ($50 vs $300). If you want to see all the live/history data for your unit and monitor it, the soft starter is a really cool piece of technology. It also has some other built-in protections like brownout protection, undervoltage, etc. that can possibly save your compressor. Otherwise, the hard starter will do the job if your generator can handle the surge.
Thanks for reading and let me know if y'all have any questions.
American Standard (2003) 3-ton:
Nameplate LRA: 87A
Nameplate RLA: 15.3A
With Amrad Hard Start Kit: 30.67A (starting current) on Kobalt meter
First run on Micro Air: 36.8A (on meter), 48A (in app)
Data from the Bluetooth App after 5 learning cycles:
Rheem (2012) 3-ton:
Nameplate LRA: 79A
Nameplate RLA: 16.7A
With Amrad Hard Start Kit: 35.35A (starting current) on Kobalt meter
First run on Micro Air: 36.8A (on meter), 48A (in app)
Data from Bluetooth App after 5 learning cycles:
I also purchased some weatherproof enclosures for them from PolyCase.com (never heard of them before but excellent selections and customer service). The seller told me these soft starters are weatherproof but that sunlight will eventually take its toll so I figured another enclosure would help with that. I can recommend a bigger one for anyone looking to purchase these soft starters because mine were a bit small:
So what are my final conclusions?
1. I love being able to see real-time run data and how many cycles my units go through. It was a reminder to me that I need more insulation
but also good to know the units are doing their job. 2. Even though the figures are similar with the Amrad hard starter (my meter may also be a bit off) and the Micro Air I can tell a measurable difference from inside my house. With no starting aid on the compressors the lights dimmed considerably when either unit kicked on. With the hard starters it was noticeable but not dramatic like before. With the Micro Air units the lights dimming inside is gone.
3. The Micro Air starter actually turns on the compressor fan first then starts the compressor after about 5 seconds. It further reduces the jolt on your home panel by not starting the compressor simultaneously with the air handler blower and the compressor fan.
4. The main reason I bought this was to aid my home generator in not bogging down on startup of my units. Do I overall think it's worth it? I'm honestly impressed with the Amrad hard starters ( https://amradmanufacturing.com/products/turbo-easy-start-5/) and would recommend them since they are cheaper ($50 vs $300). If you want to see all the live/history data for your unit and monitor it, the soft starter is a really cool piece of technology. It also has some other built-in protections like brownout protection, undervoltage, etc. that can possibly save your compressor. Otherwise, the hard starter will do the job if your generator can handle the surge.
Thanks for reading and let me know if y'all have any questions.
This post was edited on 10/18/21 at 7:18 am
7
Posted on 10/18/21 at 5:46 am to bapple
I installed mine about a month ago when setting everything up for my generator. I haven't had luck getting the Bluetooth connected. Saw significant reduction in amp draw. I have a fairly new unit and was only drawing like 7.5 running amps after install. Was also lucky enough for it to fit within the cover on the compressor unit. It's pricey compared to the hard start, but appears to work. I'd bet the hard start was drawing more amps, but its so fast you couldn't pick it up on a multi meter without having very high end equipment.
Posted on 10/18/21 at 6:09 am to bapple
Where did you find the wiring instructions? I was looking for something official from Micro-Air but couldn’t find anything.
I have two to install on Rheem 4T 16SEER units.
I have two to install on Rheem 4T 16SEER units.
Posted on 10/18/21 at 7:09 am to LSUtigerME
quote:
Where did you find the wiring instructions?
https://www.micro-air.com/support-documents/residential/current/EasyStart_HomeResidential_Installation_Guide.pdf
There’s the link from Micro Air. But to simplify:
Orange - to herm terminal on capacitor
Brown - to run wire to compressor
White - replaces the spot where the compressor run wire was removed from contactor
Black - goes to opposite side of contactor from white
quote:
I'd bet the hard start was drawing more amps, but its so fast you couldn't pick it up on a multi meter without having very high end equipment.
True. Without being able to see the curve I can’t tell the duration of the inrush either. The soft starter probably spreads it out more evenly whereas the hard starter may have a stronger spike. Either way, both are quite good at getting the compressor up to speed comfortably, just in two different ways.
This post was edited on 10/18/21 at 7:10 am
Posted on 10/18/21 at 8:47 am to bapple
Good info on both the soft start and hard capacitors - thanks for sharing. I also have the AmRad hard start capacitor though I installed it not with generator use in mind. It can be beneficial for older units where one has an aging compressor. I think I would go with the soft start kit if trying to run the HVAC on a higher KW portable generator.
Give us your impression of the standby generator you recently had installed at an appropriate time - Honeywell was it? Trying to recall from memory.
Give us your impression of the standby generator you recently had installed at an appropriate time - Honeywell was it? Trying to recall from memory.
Posted on 10/18/21 at 8:54 am to CrawDude
quote:
Give us your impression of the standby generator you recently had installed at an appropriate time - Honeywell was it? Trying to recall from memory
I’ve only had it for a week so I can’t say much right now except that I think it’s a little more aesthetically-pleasing than a Generac since it’s grey instead of cream-colored
. Otherwise it seems to be pretty much Generac parts across the board with the HW logo. Set my weekly exercise for Sunday mornings and I’ve got Entergy coming verify my regulator is properly-sized. I’ll give a full report after the first power outage we have.
Posted on 10/18/21 at 11:43 am to bapple
"hard start" kits don't actually reduce starting current, what it does, however, is vastly reduce the TIME it takes to start the compressor, with the faster start means less total energy (E = P*t) is needed to get the motor spinning
It's so fast that just using a regular clamp meter won't give you an accurate reading on the actual start current because regular current clamps are too slow to see it, you'd have to use either a special inrush clamp meter or an oscilloscope
It's so fast that just using a regular clamp meter won't give you an accurate reading on the actual start current because regular current clamps are too slow to see it, you'd have to use either a special inrush clamp meter or an oscilloscope
This post was edited on 10/18/21 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 10/18/21 at 12:51 pm to DVinBR
quote:
"hard start" kits don't actually reduce starting current, what it does, however, is vastly reduce the TIME it takes to start the compressor
The amount of current and amount of time the compressor sees that current are both important though. The overall result of having the start capacitor (hard start) is less strain on the compressor and less inrush from the power system overall since it’s over a much shorter period of time. You could probably find an exact instant that the inrush is equal to nameplate LRA when using the soft starter but it’s such an infinitesimal amount of time that it largely is irrelevant.
I think the clamp-on meter may not be completely precise but does give you a simple baseline of what kind of beating the compressor takes.
Posted on 10/18/21 at 1:06 pm to bapple
quote:
You could probably find an exact instant that the inrush is equal to nameplate LRA when using the soft starter but it’s such an infinitesimal amount of time that it largely is irrelevant.
well, not exactly, if the soft starter didn't have a start capacitor in it and all it did was ramp the phase control up you would basically see the current spike somewhat below the max LRA (that's what i saw when i developed mine), since the soft starter pushes full power through the start capacitor during the ramp you get the extra torque to get the motor spinning as the thing ramps up the phase control, and the motor starts spinning before the motor is even supplied the full 240Vrms wave
This post was edited on 10/18/21 at 1:53 pm
Posted on 10/18/21 at 1:38 pm to DVinBR
Great explanation. So the soft starter actually reduces LRA and a hard start kit just decreases the amount of time needed for the compressor to reach full speed. And technically both would reduce the jolt on a generator but LRA would actually be lower utilizing the soft starter.
It sure helps having a guy in here that has built one from the ground-up
.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 8:44 am to bapple
Going to bump this thread, as I finally got around to installing my MicroAir.
My unit is a 5 ton, and I was showing 131-133 LRA on my Klein meter. After the soft start's 5 learning cycles, the meter settled in at 31.8
The app is showing that be be around 50, though.
Either way, I don't guess my 10kw portable generator is going to enough, given its 30amp plug outlet
My unit is a 5 ton, and I was showing 131-133 LRA on my Klein meter. After the soft start's 5 learning cycles, the meter settled in at 31.8
The app is showing that be be around 50, though.
Either way, I don't guess my 10kw portable generator is going to enough, given its 30amp plug outlet
This post was edited on 5/5/22 at 8:48 am
Posted on 5/5/22 at 9:58 am to bootlegger
quote:
Either way, I don't guess my 10kw portable generator is going to enough, given its 30amp plug outlet
Damn what generator is that? Is that 10kw surge or running watts?
10 kw should be able to put out about 41 amps, so it might be able to run it, although it may be the only thing it’s running. Surprising you have a 10kw with only a 30A plug. That’s pretty limiting.
For reference, the app shows a 31A peak start for my 4T unit.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 10:54 am to LSUtigerME
It's a Champion tri-fuel, 10k surge (on gasoline). I haven't even unboxed it yet, but I was assuming the 30amp plug would have a 30amp breaker on it, which would likey trip when the unit kicked on.
I may try it with all the other breakers off to see what it does.. was hoping it would handle it after the soft start.
I may try it with all the other breakers off to see what it does.. was hoping it would handle it after the soft start.
Posted on 5/5/22 at 3:07 pm to bootlegger
It will likely still work. If the generator has the wattage, the breaker will probably not trip for such a short spike load. Your braker on your house for the unit is probably 30 amp.
Posted on 5/6/22 at 9:19 am to Jon A thon
Great point. My meter was reading 131-133 amps on startup, and the unit is on a double 40 breaker inside. I guess that inrush current is so quick it doesn't have time to heat up and trip. Gives me a lot of hope for the generator to be able to kick it on.
Posted on 6/3/22 at 11:04 pm to bootlegger
Sorry I just got around to replying to this - haven't been on TD in a while!
Checking in - the generator can easily handle running both of my units with no problem and the soft starters definitely help. I do get a slight dimming of the lights in my house during startup but the generator isn't as stout as the utility so no worries there. Once up to speed, I'm pulling about 6500W with both units running so the generator isn't sweating at all. It's got about 13 run hours on it already (lots of utility pole work was done near my house back in January) and exercises weekly. No problems at all so far and I have spare spark plugs, oil, and oil filters on-hand if needed.
One thing I love about the soft starters is the adjustable brownout delay. One is set to 3 minutes and the other 5 minutes. That way if they kick off at the same time during an outage they won't turn back on at the same time.
Good to see you're getting some stellar numbers as well. I've had my Micro Air units running for about 8 months now (4-5k starts on each) and they've been great. My old 2003 reciprocating compressor barely makes noise when it turns on now. And neither unit dims the lights in my house like they used to and there's no sign of them turning on in the house. I certainly love that!
The seller I purchased the kit from told me the best thing to do to extend the life of the soft starter is to protect it from sunlight. If yours is just sitting on the outside of the unit out in the open like that I'd probably mount it in the shade or put it in an enclosure.
You're correct on your assumption about the heat. Breakers in your home panel are thermal-magnetic, meaning they have a magnetic portion for instantaneous trip (like a short circuit) and a thermal portion for overload (longer duration until tripping).
I don't know how you plan to backfeed your panel, but make sure to remember that most breakers are 80% devices, meaning a 30A breaker isn't designed to handle 30A continuously. So if you are straddling that line at 30A, you'd want a 50A breaker/receptacle/cable to handle the load better.
EDIT: Forgot to mention Micro Air has amazing customer service. I sent the diagnostics to them from my bluetooth app to tell me what faults the units read. He explained the soft starter turns off the unit for 3 minutes than restarts under one of the fault conditions:
quote:
Give us your impression of the standby generator you recently had installed at an appropriate time - Honeywell was it? Trying to recall from memory.
Checking in - the generator can easily handle running both of my units with no problem and the soft starters definitely help. I do get a slight dimming of the lights in my house during startup but the generator isn't as stout as the utility so no worries there. Once up to speed, I'm pulling about 6500W with both units running so the generator isn't sweating at all. It's got about 13 run hours on it already (lots of utility pole work was done near my house back in January) and exercises weekly. No problems at all so far and I have spare spark plugs, oil, and oil filters on-hand if needed.
One thing I love about the soft starters is the adjustable brownout delay. One is set to 3 minutes and the other 5 minutes. That way if they kick off at the same time during an outage they won't turn back on at the same time.
quote:
bootlegger
Good to see you're getting some stellar numbers as well. I've had my Micro Air units running for about 8 months now (4-5k starts on each) and they've been great. My old 2003 reciprocating compressor barely makes noise when it turns on now. And neither unit dims the lights in my house like they used to and there's no sign of them turning on in the house. I certainly love that!
The seller I purchased the kit from told me the best thing to do to extend the life of the soft starter is to protect it from sunlight. If yours is just sitting on the outside of the unit out in the open like that I'd probably mount it in the shade or put it in an enclosure.
quote:
My meter was reading 131-133 amps on startup, and the unit is on a double 40 breaker inside. I guess that inrush current is so quick it doesn't have time to heat up and trip. Gives me a lot of hope for the generator to be able to kick it on.
You're correct on your assumption about the heat. Breakers in your home panel are thermal-magnetic, meaning they have a magnetic portion for instantaneous trip (like a short circuit) and a thermal portion for overload (longer duration until tripping).
I don't know how you plan to backfeed your panel, but make sure to remember that most breakers are 80% devices, meaning a 30A breaker isn't designed to handle 30A continuously. So if you are straddling that line at 30A, you'd want a 50A breaker/receptacle/cable to handle the load better.
EDIT: Forgot to mention Micro Air has amazing customer service. I sent the diagnostics to them from my bluetooth app to tell me what faults the units read. He explained the soft starter turns off the unit for 3 minutes than restarts under one of the fault conditions:
quote:
Hello,
It looks like you have two EasyStart units and sent over a couple of reports.
Both look to be running will with a couple faults for stalls. This is typically due to a low voltage situation, but it means that EasyStart detected the motor slowing down and about to collapse. This was after about 6 minutes of run time, where EasyStart is out of circuit (other than monitoring) and it is up to the power source to sustain the load. If you have questions then let us know.
Best,
Nick
This post was edited on 6/3/22 at 11:14 pm
Posted on 6/4/22 at 11:53 am to bapple
I installed the 348 Model on the BIL's 2 stage Ruud (single speed scroll with unloading), 2007 model last weekend. His is the integrated Zero run through solid state contactor on the big circuit board. I kept getting the start winding not detected error. I emailed their tech support this week with the unit info and schematic but have yet to hear back from them. Has anyone put one of these on an integrated board? The start winding hits the board along with run and common, then comes back out to the capacitor.
Posted on 6/4/22 at 1:32 pm to Wraytex
quote:
Wraytex
Unfortunately I haven't installed one of these on a unit like that with a control board.
Since I had a responsive technician, I went ahead and sent him an email with the text from your message. I'll let you know if he has any information when he gets back to me.
EDIT: I already got a response from this tech. He's on the ball.
quote:
Hello Bapple,
You can use the same link from before for the mis-wiring fault. It lists some potential wiring errors.
You can take a meter from orange to black and measure continuity through the compressor motor winding (a few ohms). If there is continuity then he has to make sure orange and compressor "S" are electrically connected to the "Herm" terminal of the run capacitor, and that the run capacitor "C" terminal still has its L2 connection. EasyStart white should be connected to L2 somewhere as well. The fact they go through the board and a special contactor is fine to meet the above criteria. If he still has trouble then have him send another email attn Nick.
Best,
Nick
And here's the link he's talking about https://www.micro-air.com/kb-easystart/articles_troubleshooting/easystart_Flashing_Indicator_Lights.cfm.
Let me know if you need me to send him anything else.
This post was edited on 6/4/22 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 6/4/22 at 2:56 pm to bapple
Thank you for the reply, I'll try it again next friday. I believe the fault is I connected to the Start winding where it comes out of the board to the capacitor, where a typical unit would be wired, Next time out, I'll cut the start wire before it plugs into the board and splice in there, i think the board is interrupting that lead. again, thank you and I'll follow up here.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 11:12 am to bapple
Well, the Champion tri-fuel kicked on my 5 ton unit with no issues, on natural gas. I'm tickled pink about that! The generator was about 1200, MicroAir soft start was 350, and about 1000 for the interlock kit/wiring/50amp plug/etc., so I'm about $2500 in and can run the entire house.
Page 1 of 2
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News