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Started By
Message
Please consider this improvement request for Poli Board - SEE ETA in 1st post
Posted on 12/5/17 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 12/5/17 at 1:06 pm
Repeating this here. It's in this link also. From poli board
See the discussion. I think it merits at least trying
We may have to juggle the what is stickied. But let's try it.
Consensus in tread seems to think this should at least merit a board beta treat
My Social security thread is actually going decent. With that in mind, would there be merit in having 4-5 permanent stickied threads titled perhaps some of the following (or others........recommend creation of sample thread openers.........also. Expect some threads to fail......in which case, we can create a replacement)
Social security discussion
Tax policy
Education policy
Foreign policy
Immigration
Same more stringent ground rules?(from the SS thread)
Perhaps the existence of discussions which really have extended across MANY administrations would contribute to regulars on the board becoming less one dimensional?
ETA
If the admins agree to do this, we can use the Help Board to determine the first 4-5 stickied threads. I'm sure we'll have trial and error. Dead threads can be removed in favor of others.
Basically, I think we should narrow it to about 10-15 suggestions and then the top 5 vote getters get in.
See the discussion. I think it merits at least trying
We may have to juggle the what is stickied. But let's try it.
Consensus in tread seems to think this should at least merit a board beta treat
My Social security thread is actually going decent. With that in mind, would there be merit in having 4-5 permanent stickied threads titled perhaps some of the following (or others........recommend creation of sample thread openers.........also. Expect some threads to fail......in which case, we can create a replacement)
Social security discussion
Tax policy
Education policy
Foreign policy
Immigration
Same more stringent ground rules?(from the SS thread)
Perhaps the existence of discussions which really have extended across MANY administrations would contribute to regulars on the board becoming less one dimensional?
ETA
If the admins agree to do this, we can use the Help Board to determine the first 4-5 stickied threads. I'm sure we'll have trial and error. Dead threads can be removed in favor of others.
Basically, I think we should narrow it to about 10-15 suggestions and then the top 5 vote getters get in.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 3:30 pm
5
Posted on 12/5/17 at 1:09 pm to ShortyRob
I second this emotion
Posted on 12/5/17 at 1:12 pm to ShortyRob
Endorsed
Poli is getting worse and really just becoming a place to repost memes and dumb takes from Reddit or 4chan or twitter
- I think it'll self enforce over time. People interested will have zero tolerance for BS and trolling posters will go elsewhere
- while I'd prefer more specific topics, ShortyRob is probably right that a couple broad topics would be more efficient and won't tie up the top of the board
- People interacting on a civilized level in those threads could result in them not shitting up the rest of the board
Poli is getting worse and really just becoming a place to repost memes and dumb takes from Reddit or 4chan or twitter
- I think it'll self enforce over time. People interested will have zero tolerance for BS and trolling posters will go elsewhere
- while I'd prefer more specific topics, ShortyRob is probably right that a couple broad topics would be more efficient and won't tie up the top of the board
- People interacting on a civilized level in those threads could result in them not shitting up the rest of the board
Posted on 12/5/17 at 2:35 pm to ShortyRob
I like the idea however don't like social security and education as topics as a stickied threads. The topics would be dead IMO.
They should be replaced with an economy thread (update with monthly BLS numbers and quarterly GDP numbers) and conspiracy thread.
They should be replaced with an economy thread (update with monthly BLS numbers and quarterly GDP numbers) and conspiracy thread.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 2:49 pm to ShortyRob
I am glad you see the increasing annoyance people that want to elevate the discussion are having, but I am not sure how anything short of a NeutralPolitics type set up will prevent it: LINK /
But in light of this revelation you should probably consider how you may have been contributing to that devolving discourse:
LINK /
LINK
LINK
Im not singling you out but there is a general fostering of a poor culture of discussion, groupthink promoting, out-group dog piling, drive by shite posting, and trolling on that board that is probably only second to 4chan or The_Donald(though thankfully with less ironic banning of wrong-thinkers as they cry about Reddit’s supposed oppressive policies).
This forum in general has loose moderation standards, that inevitably invites low effort shitposting without consequences. And politics always magnify such things. But on the other hand also allows things to be more loose and casual. Something heavily moderated boards on the right and left can often sap out.
I would absolutely like to be able to have a policy discussion for once where it doesn’t devolve into the other person making ad hominem attacks or using disengenuous logical fallacies to muddy the conversation and troll. But because the effort seems so fruitless, it basically just invites those people to shitpost back and a vicious cycle emerges. Where people maybe once wanting to have higher level conversations find it pointless, so all that is left is back and forth shite posting and tribalism. Satirizing the absurdity that it has devolved into.
I’d certainly be down to try anything, but I have my doubts in how much it will actually work. And certainly my concerns with how even-handed the endeavor can be. And if some of you even are that committed to making it work? Which would include no longer dog piling and character attacking the few centrist and left leaning posters that still put up with the nonsense.
But in light of this revelation you should probably consider how you may have been contributing to that devolving discourse:
LINK /
LINK
LINK
Im not singling you out but there is a general fostering of a poor culture of discussion, groupthink promoting, out-group dog piling, drive by shite posting, and trolling on that board that is probably only second to 4chan or The_Donald(though thankfully with less ironic banning of wrong-thinkers as they cry about Reddit’s supposed oppressive policies).
This forum in general has loose moderation standards, that inevitably invites low effort shitposting without consequences. And politics always magnify such things. But on the other hand also allows things to be more loose and casual. Something heavily moderated boards on the right and left can often sap out.
I would absolutely like to be able to have a policy discussion for once where it doesn’t devolve into the other person making ad hominem attacks or using disengenuous logical fallacies to muddy the conversation and troll. But because the effort seems so fruitless, it basically just invites those people to shitpost back and a vicious cycle emerges. Where people maybe once wanting to have higher level conversations find it pointless, so all that is left is back and forth shite posting and tribalism. Satirizing the absurdity that it has devolved into.
I’d certainly be down to try anything, but I have my doubts in how much it will actually work. And certainly my concerns with how even-handed the endeavor can be. And if some of you even are that committed to making it work? Which would include no longer dog piling and character attacking the few centrist and left leaning posters that still put up with the nonsense.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:02 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:
But in light of this revelation you should probably consider how you may have been contributing to that devolving discourse:
You'll note that my suggestion does NOT have an "everyone else sucks about this and I wish they'd all be me" tone to it.
That wasn't accidental. We're all prone to lowering the bar.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:03 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:It may fail spectacularly.
I’d certainly be down to try anything, but I have my doubts in how much it will actually work.
But, there's certainly nothing lost by giving it a shot.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:04 pm to GumboPot
quote:
I like the idea however don't like social security and education as topics as a stickied threads. The topics would be dead IMO.
They should be replaced with an economy thread (update with monthly BLS numbers and quarterly GDP numbers) and conspiracy thread.
When topics get too broad though it becomes a dumping ground and invitation for derails. A couple posters spamming the thread with quick hot takes from a show they watched or linking something on their feed.
If the goal is truly to have a few places where greater level discorse can happen, rotating a few topics as they become relevant makes sense. Or at least designating the threads with markers that indicate a different standard is being applied.
Instead of economics, which is a ridiculously broad topic, you could have a discussion about the historical effect of tax cuts on growth and revenue. Or the viability of achieving sustained 4% growth targets. Do tax cuts grow revenue? How does health insurance expenditures affect wage growth? Does social security need reform and if so how and what can achieve that?
Narrow questions that keep the discussion on track and invite empirical discussion over hot-takes and tribalism.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:08 pm to bonhoeffer45
I don't frequently troll for the pure sake of trolling, but I would certainly be willing to modify how I interact in those threads and not get into arguments where the underlying point is lost. I suspect ShortyRob and at least some others like him would do the same.
As for the other suggestion, I somewhat agree that Social Security and Education are probably going to die on the vine.
Encompass those in something else, if possible. Bigger topics that may nonetheless get solid traffic could be:
Military/Foreign Policy
US Economy (specifically including discussion of entitlements and tax policy)
Bill of Rights Discussion (1A policy, 2A, criminal justice)
or something like that. Making them sound dull as hell would probably be a good thing.
As for the other suggestion, I somewhat agree that Social Security and Education are probably going to die on the vine.
Encompass those in something else, if possible. Bigger topics that may nonetheless get solid traffic could be:
Military/Foreign Policy
US Economy (specifically including discussion of entitlements and tax policy)
Bill of Rights Discussion (1A policy, 2A, criminal justice)
or something like that. Making them sound dull as hell would probably be a good thing.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:16 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:
Narrow questions that keep the discussion on track and invite empirical discussion over hot-takes and tribalism.
I agree, but I think there is very little pattern for that and we simply couldn't pin all the discussions like that.
The issue is that most of the time a specific, in depth topic is going to fall off the first pages due to some posters making multiple posts an hour that are really just memes or insults or whatever.
I of course would encourage everyone to make more of the posts you talk about, but the advantage of broad stickied topics would be that you could pop in and try and create talk about a substantive topic, and people would know where to look for that type of thing. Moreover, serious posters on those topics wouldn't miss your input if it drops down the board among all the normal chaff
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:19 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:
When topics get too broad though it becomes a dumping ground and invitation for derails.
If the admins agree to do this, we can use the Help Board to determine the first 4-5 stickied threads. I'm sure we'll have trial and error. Dead threads can be removed in favor of others.
Basically, I think we should narrow it to about 10-15 suggestions and then the top 5 vote getters get in.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:20 pm to Pettifogger
I just feel like having just a catch all US economy thread really just invites drive-by randomness and lots of derailed discussions. It’s so broad there is nothing to keep focused on.
If it were a smaller board like Saints Report I could see it working, but I suspect that a US economy sticky would just invite a lot of drive by posts, wagon circling and a lot of the issues of unfocused tribalism trying to be avoided.
That’s why I suggested really specific outlines of the discussion as a way around. Though slightly less broad topics like instead of criminal justice, how about more focused like the arguments for and against Broken Windows policing? I just think narrowing the conversation combined with slightly higher discourse standards are the two ways of attacking the problem.
If it were a smaller board like Saints Report I could see it working, but I suspect that a US economy sticky would just invite a lot of drive by posts, wagon circling and a lot of the issues of unfocused tribalism trying to be avoided.
That’s why I suggested really specific outlines of the discussion as a way around. Though slightly less broad topics like instead of criminal justice, how about more focused like the arguments for and against Broken Windows policing? I just think narrowing the conversation combined with slightly higher discourse standards are the two ways of attacking the problem.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:25 pm to Pettifogger
quote:The good things about long term stickied threads, even if more broad are:
The issue is that most of the time a specific, in depth topic is going to fall off the first pages due to some posters making multiple posts an hour that are really just memes or insults or whatever
1. Not directly tied to a given political personality but rather are a discussion of what we generally believe on the subject at hand
2. Long term accountability for what you posted. (and credibility for consistent opinion vs situational)
3. Not immediately, but over time, should flesh out who people really are(in a good way). I get responses all the time to serious posts that seem completely oblivious to my history here. Like I started posting that day. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
4. Related to #2. Again long term. If you've been posting in a long term thread for 2 years that you support/oppose X.......good luck taking the opposite position just cause the guy you like/dislike takes a given position.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:29 pm to bonhoeffer45
I do follow your concerns, I just don't know how it fits in with the stickied topics/no trolling idea
To me, they'd either need to be curated by someone (someone is putting rotating topics for discussion at the top and removing others) or they'd be drawn from the board and stickied (like the SS one), but I don't know if we could apply as strict rules in that scenario, and I wouldn't want good threads to get dropped because a mod isn't around when it is active.
Otherwise, we'd have 20 sticked topics consuming the top half of the board. How do you see it working - maybe I'm not envisioning the way you are?
To me, they'd either need to be curated by someone (someone is putting rotating topics for discussion at the top and removing others) or they'd be drawn from the board and stickied (like the SS one), but I don't know if we could apply as strict rules in that scenario, and I wouldn't want good threads to get dropped because a mod isn't around when it is active.
Otherwise, we'd have 20 sticked topics consuming the top half of the board. How do you see it working - maybe I'm not envisioning the way you are?
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:39 pm to Pettifogger
I think the process isn't really that difficult. First we have to come to agreement on the first five. No more than that. Once those are up we will simply see how they play out. If the thread dies on the vine then we will suggest another.
Please note that I really think the most important characteristic of these long-term threads is that the conversation revolve around our belief systems and recommendations. As such the sticky threads wouldn't necessarily be the issue of the particular day.
As for someone fricking up the thread waila mod isn't looking. That's going to happen. As long as we know that post that deviate will be deleted I don't think it's going to be too big a deal over time
I'm happy to construct 1 sample threat starting post in this thread so that we can massage the format to something we think would work
Then all of the sticky threads would look like that
Please note that I really think the most important characteristic of these long-term threads is that the conversation revolve around our belief systems and recommendations. As such the sticky threads wouldn't necessarily be the issue of the particular day.
As for someone fricking up the thread waila mod isn't looking. That's going to happen. As long as we know that post that deviate will be deleted I don't think it's going to be too big a deal over time
I'm happy to construct 1 sample threat starting post in this thread so that we can massage the format to something we think would work
Then all of the sticky threads would look like that
Posted on 12/5/17 at 4:12 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Otherwise, we'd have 20 sticked topics consuming the top half of the board. How do you see it working - maybe I'm not envisioning the way you are?
I mean I should preface by saying I’m cynical of any of this working. Ive seen and been hands on involved in places where heavier moderation was encouraged, and boards and topics just became a breeding ground for culling out wrong thinkers through over zealous mods applying standards of behavior disproportionately harsher toward people who’s opinions they disagree with(which I will say I have seen happen on the poli board). And self-moderated/low moderation boards with high poster counts turn into dog piles and echo chambers like 4chan and TheDonald.
Though I think the desire for better discourse is admirable, and I would invite any attempt.
I’m down for trying a set of topics more moderated and seeing how it goes, or just even some self moderation topics prefaced with some ground rules and see if it works. But I suspect part of the issue is getting mods both willing and objective enough to carry it out. And the larger problem that the board is overwhelmingly populated by people that clearly like it the way it is.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 4:23 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:
I’m down for trying a set of topics more moderated and seeing how it goes, or just even some self moderation topics prefaced with some ground rules and see if it works. But I suspect part of the issue is getting mods both willing and objective enough to carry it out. And the larger problem that the board is overwhelmingly populated by people that clearly like it the way it is
I do think that mod time commitment could be an issue
I'm pretty pleased with how the self-regulated Social Security thread went. The only flaw is that by definition such threads will not be as prolific as the bomb throwers. As such even perfectly set up threads will disappear off the first page without a sticky. Just look at my thread
So maybe we should simply ask for the ability to Sticky four or five threads with the ground rules set in place?
It worked for that thread. To be sure you are correct about overzealous moderation. That's what I've seen virtually everywhere else we're by the time they are done the place makes tigerdroppings look like the UNICEF of political board
I don't think I really agree with you that Everyone likes the Dogpile. But the problem is it has become literally impossible to do anything but Dogpile
The real problem with the board to me at this point though is that it actually is pretty much devoid of opinions
You may think that's ridiculous to say but how often are we really seeing people post in the following format
I believe X to be the best policy to handle the problem and here is why.
Or. I believe X policy will cause harm and here is why.
Posted on 12/6/17 at 11:01 pm to ShortyRob
This idea would kill traffic to TD. Not a practical idea.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 2:13 pm to Marco Esquandolas
quote:
It already exists...it's called the Huffington Post---you should go there.....and stay.
Way to prove his point.
Posted on 12/7/17 at 3:46 pm to airfernando
quote:
This idea would kill traffic to TD. Not a practical idea.
How would 3-4 pinned threads kill traffic?
What would kill traffic is if we cracked down on trolling and namecalling entirely and nobody came here to flame any more
But that's not what this proposal does
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