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This idea that the USMNT is ignoring Mexican-Americans
Posted on 8/18/21 at 2:35 am
Posted on 8/18/21 at 2:35 am
I think a lot of people on here who read Ochoa's reasoning for picking Mexico kind of met it with an eye roll.
Yes, mental health is a real thing and I don't doubt he has had an identity struggle being Chicano (so then why go back to a federation that bullied you?). But I think it really all boils down to Mexico being not as crowded of a depth chart. Fine, fair enough. I won't fault you for that business decision.
What I do think was a tad disingenuous was how Ochoa basically laid it on the USMNT and this weird narrative that they ignore Mexican-Americans. And it's something some of the media have run with since.
Just since 2020, the USMNT has called up and/or capped the following Mexican-Americans:
Uly Llanez, Paul Arriola, Julian Araujo, Richie Ledezma, Mauricio Pineda, Marco Farfan, and of course David Ochoa.
On top of that, our 2021 U-23 Olympic qualifying team had:
Sebastian Saucedo, along with Araujo, Ochoa and Pineda
And going even deeper, our 2019 U-20 World Cup team had:
Alex Mendez, Edwin Cerrillo along with Ochoa, Llanez and Ledezma.
While I'm here, the 2019 U-17 World Cup team had:
Ricardo Pepi, Danny Leyva, Adam Saldana, Nico Carrera and Alfonso Ocampo-Chavez.
That is 15 Mexican-Americans that were called up for the full USMNT or major youth international tournaments
in the last three years.
We are representing the community just fine.
It would be one thing if we were straight up shunning a dude because of his heritage or dragging our feet on some can't miss prospect that is eligible for both, but that simply isn't the case.
I think objectively, Arriola (longevity/familiarity) and Pepi (we have no strikers) are the only two who have a chance at seeing real World Cup Qualifying minutes. I would like to think that most people with a voice would understand that, in this meritocracy, the majority of our Mexican-Americans in the pool are on the outside looking solely based on talent, not because of xenophobia.
Unfortunately, we live in a clown world and this narrative is going to remain which could possibly screw us out of some valuable guys like Pepi, Gomez, Ledezma, etc.
Yes, mental health is a real thing and I don't doubt he has had an identity struggle being Chicano (so then why go back to a federation that bullied you?). But I think it really all boils down to Mexico being not as crowded of a depth chart. Fine, fair enough. I won't fault you for that business decision.
What I do think was a tad disingenuous was how Ochoa basically laid it on the USMNT and this weird narrative that they ignore Mexican-Americans. And it's something some of the media have run with since.
Just since 2020, the USMNT has called up and/or capped the following Mexican-Americans:
Uly Llanez, Paul Arriola, Julian Araujo, Richie Ledezma, Mauricio Pineda, Marco Farfan, and of course David Ochoa.
On top of that, our 2021 U-23 Olympic qualifying team had:
Sebastian Saucedo, along with Araujo, Ochoa and Pineda
And going even deeper, our 2019 U-20 World Cup team had:
Alex Mendez, Edwin Cerrillo along with Ochoa, Llanez and Ledezma.
While I'm here, the 2019 U-17 World Cup team had:
Ricardo Pepi, Danny Leyva, Adam Saldana, Nico Carrera and Alfonso Ocampo-Chavez.
That is 15 Mexican-Americans that were called up for the full USMNT or major youth international tournaments
in the last three years.
We are representing the community just fine.
It would be one thing if we were straight up shunning a dude because of his heritage or dragging our feet on some can't miss prospect that is eligible for both, but that simply isn't the case.
I think objectively, Arriola (longevity/familiarity) and Pepi (we have no strikers) are the only two who have a chance at seeing real World Cup Qualifying minutes. I would like to think that most people with a voice would understand that, in this meritocracy, the majority of our Mexican-Americans in the pool are on the outside looking solely based on talent, not because of xenophobia.
Unfortunately, we live in a clown world and this narrative is going to remain which could possibly screw us out of some valuable guys like Pepi, Gomez, Ledezma, etc.
This post was edited on 8/18/21 at 2:46 am
8
Posted on 8/18/21 at 3:34 am to Broski
I think it’s mostly BS, because they are clearly supported through multiple levels of national teams and presumably given the same opportunities as their non Hispanic counterparts. US fans really showed Ochoa love after his olympics disaster, GGG included him on the NL roster, etc and he returns it by switching sides and then liking Twitter vid of Horvath getting beat by a free kick. He’s got character issues, and I think it may hold him back in his career (I feel the same about Efrain Alvarez tbh).
As a counter point to this, I agree with some of what Hercules Gomez says about outreach with these kids, that we need Hispanics who’ve played for the USMNT to be leading the push. Gomez says he hasn’t been approached by USSF for a role like this but he’s offered to do it in the past and seems to be interested still… it’s a bad look when, like the case of Jona Gonzalez, Mexico sends a national team coach to meet a player and his family whereas Thomas Roengen just lied and said he visited the family and then got called out on it
Herc had a good point on the scuffed podcast when he said we should have sent Landon Donovan because he’s one of the most recognized soccer figures in Mexico and his words would garner respect. I think doing things like that would get us closer to finding a Hispanic player of Pulisic or Donovan’s quality who becomes a star here… after that I think winning the dual nat battle gets easier.
As a counter point to this, I agree with some of what Hercules Gomez says about outreach with these kids, that we need Hispanics who’ve played for the USMNT to be leading the push. Gomez says he hasn’t been approached by USSF for a role like this but he’s offered to do it in the past and seems to be interested still… it’s a bad look when, like the case of Jona Gonzalez, Mexico sends a national team coach to meet a player and his family whereas Thomas Roengen just lied and said he visited the family and then got called out on it
Herc had a good point on the scuffed podcast when he said we should have sent Landon Donovan because he’s one of the most recognized soccer figures in Mexico and his words would garner respect. I think doing things like that would get us closer to finding a Hispanic player of Pulisic or Donovan’s quality who becomes a star here… after that I think winning the dual nat battle gets easier. 
Posted on 8/18/21 at 4:31 am to Broski
Ventura Alvarado TYFYS
Posted on 8/18/21 at 5:50 am to cwil177
quote:
I agree with some of what Hercules Gomez says about outreach with these kids
I think this has been the biggest issue and the one that people complain the most about.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 9:07 am to Broski
I just ignore identity politics as 99.999999% of claims are bullshite.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 9:55 am to cwil177
quote:
it’s a bad look when, like the case of Jona Gonzalez, Mexico sends a national team coach to meet a player and his family whereas Thomas Roengen just lied and said he visited the family and then got called out on it
Yeah that was bad and Rongen needs to be out of the USSF fold because of that. How he handled the recruitment and the paper-thin damage control after the fact was embarrassing.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 9:58 am to Broski
Is the idea that Berhalter or the US is ignoring Mexican-American players gaining traction because of this article?
The article seems to have the following steps
1. Growing up in Oxnard, he only knew Mexican-American players and his dad loved Chivas
2. He signed with Chivas at 12 and all of the youth players taunted him and he didn’t form a special bond with the coaches
3. He is bad at school and was worried he was going to work in construction his whole life. His dad seems to be a fine and happy individual but a lot of his friends hated the job and drank heavily or did drugs
4. He signed with Real Salt Lake and had a great relationship with Mexican American coaches
5. He played for the Us youth national team and had a great relationship with Tab Ramos. He didn’t hit it off with most of the players but became friends with the fellow Mexican American youth players.
Notably there are no anecdotes about anyone in the US team being a dick while there are plenty of those about the Chivas players
6. He has a great relationship with that Irish coach who eventually killed himself which understandably made Ochoa very sad
7. Wahhh….he didn’t play in the nations league matches for the US
8. When he was in the Mexican camp last month everyone was nice to him because they are grown men and not 14 year olds playing for a club team that takes pride in being exclusionary.
I think that sums it up nicely
The article seems to have the following steps
1. Growing up in Oxnard, he only knew Mexican-American players and his dad loved Chivas
2. He signed with Chivas at 12 and all of the youth players taunted him and he didn’t form a special bond with the coaches
3. He is bad at school and was worried he was going to work in construction his whole life. His dad seems to be a fine and happy individual but a lot of his friends hated the job and drank heavily or did drugs
4. He signed with Real Salt Lake and had a great relationship with Mexican American coaches
5. He played for the Us youth national team and had a great relationship with Tab Ramos. He didn’t hit it off with most of the players but became friends with the fellow Mexican American youth players.
Notably there are no anecdotes about anyone in the US team being a dick while there are plenty of those about the Chivas players
6. He has a great relationship with that Irish coach who eventually killed himself which understandably made Ochoa very sad
7. Wahhh….he didn’t play in the nations league matches for the US
8. When he was in the Mexican camp last month everyone was nice to him because they are grown men and not 14 year olds playing for a club team that takes pride in being exclusionary.
I think that sums it up nicely
This post was edited on 8/18/21 at 9:59 am
Posted on 8/18/21 at 10:04 am to Keys Open Doors
He definitely infers, in addition to not playing in the Costa Rica friendly (which is the weakest excuse of all time), that the USMNT doesn't really represent Chicanos.
I don't think he was talking about Gregg, but the USSF as a whole. And I don't doubt that the federation has some blind spots when it comes to that. Like cwill mentioned, the Thomas Rongen/Jona Gonzalez stuff was handled unbelievably poorly.
With that said, it's not like El Tri has been some beacon for everyone with a Mexican passport. Hell, the second Ochoa makes an appearance for El Tri, you better believe a good bit of their fans are going to probably treat him the same way the Chivas youth system did because he's not fully Mexican. Heaven forbid he have a blunder like he did for us in Olympic qualifying.
I don't think he was talking about Gregg, but the USSF as a whole. And I don't doubt that the federation has some blind spots when it comes to that. Like cwill mentioned, the Thomas Rongen/Jona Gonzalez stuff was handled unbelievably poorly.
With that said, it's not like El Tri has been some beacon for everyone with a Mexican passport. Hell, the second Ochoa makes an appearance for El Tri, you better believe a good bit of their fans are going to probably treat him the same way the Chivas youth system did because he's not fully Mexican. Heaven forbid he have a blunder like he did for us in Olympic qualifying.
This post was edited on 8/18/21 at 10:08 am
Posted on 8/18/21 at 10:06 am to Keys Open Doors
To his credit, Ochoa doesn’t talk shite about the US team or make inferences about why he didn’t play in the nations league. He also doesn’t throw out any accusations.
He makes it clear that he is 1000 times more comfortable around Mexican-Americans who has the same upbringing he had. But that’s pretty much on him. The US team isn’t an Oxnard all-star team.
If the worst anyone can take from that is the US has reasonable and professional coaches who can’t always form a strong personal bond with players, I can live with that. There are notably no accusations of players being assholes, coaches being assholes, or coaches looking the other way.
Overall Ochoa comes across like the Mexican American equivalent of a baw who is obsessed with hunting, fishing, and country music and when he goes to college in New Hampshire is STUNNED that everyone else doesn’t have the same interests. Everyone at the college is polite and friendly but since he keeps to himself, he has few friends and eventually transfers out, but then doesn’t talk shite.
If that is the situation, I see nothing else that can be done. Ochoa was waiting a lifetime for Mexicans to not be assholes to him, and he jumped over the minute that happened.
He makes it clear that he is 1000 times more comfortable around Mexican-Americans who has the same upbringing he had. But that’s pretty much on him. The US team isn’t an Oxnard all-star team.
If the worst anyone can take from that is the US has reasonable and professional coaches who can’t always form a strong personal bond with players, I can live with that. There are notably no accusations of players being assholes, coaches being assholes, or coaches looking the other way.
Overall Ochoa comes across like the Mexican American equivalent of a baw who is obsessed with hunting, fishing, and country music and when he goes to college in New Hampshire is STUNNED that everyone else doesn’t have the same interests. Everyone at the college is polite and friendly but since he keeps to himself, he has few friends and eventually transfers out, but then doesn’t talk shite.
If that is the situation, I see nothing else that can be done. Ochoa was waiting a lifetime for Mexicans to not be assholes to him, and he jumped over the minute that happened.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 10:15 am to Keys Open Doors
The article itself came off as a mental health PSA (which I have no problem with) but it also really seemed like he was reaching for a reason to need to explain why he was filing the switch.
The reason in reality is that Mexico is WIDE arse OPEN at GK after Memo Ochoa while we have Steffen and Horvath who are still in their 20's. I think if he said that in the article, a lot of people outside Mexico would've understood. Obviously though, if he publicly said he's joining El Tri because the USMNT has better GK's, that wouldn't have gone over well for him at all in Mexico.
I just don't think he needed to vaguely disparage the USMNT's chicano representation to justify the move. Just say you felt more Mexican than American and be on your way.
ETA: I just wonder what would've happened if Horvath would've had to sub out in the NL final when Hector Herrara went studs up into him? Would Ochoa have been cool with being captied then? He even alluded in the article that he was partly accepting USMNT youth and senior team call ups to stay on Mexico's radar.
The reason in reality is that Mexico is WIDE arse OPEN at GK after Memo Ochoa while we have Steffen and Horvath who are still in their 20's. I think if he said that in the article, a lot of people outside Mexico would've understood. Obviously though, if he publicly said he's joining El Tri because the USMNT has better GK's, that wouldn't have gone over well for him at all in Mexico.
I just don't think he needed to vaguely disparage the USMNT's chicano representation to justify the move. Just say you felt more Mexican than American and be on your way.
ETA: I just wonder what would've happened if Horvath would've had to sub out in the NL final when Hector Herrara went studs up into him? Would Ochoa have been cool with being captied then? He even alluded in the article that he was partly accepting USMNT youth and senior team call ups to stay on Mexico's radar.
This post was edited on 8/18/21 at 10:18 am
Posted on 8/18/21 at 10:35 am to Broski
This is way off topic and only something that I understood after I was older than Ochoa, but there is a difference between being depressed (which happens to everyone) and clinical depression (which does not).
I can’t remember if you or CWill went to med school but I know one of you did.
To me the simple version is that everyone feels sad when bad things happen to them. For example moving to a new country and getting teased every day as a 12 year old while having no friends. That is a shitty feeling.
Clinical depression is when you feel the same symptoms of depression even when things are going well in your life otherwise. For example you are a fairly well paid goalkeeping coach who gets to travel the world, work with top teams, and get along with your colleagues and you still kill yourself.
I don’t expect Ochoa to understand just yet but he appears to be in Category 1, like the vast majority of us. Category 1 is far less serious and is probably universal. Who enjoys getting picked on?
I am pretty much guessing on my interpretation of Category 2 though
I can’t remember if you or CWill went to med school but I know one of you did.
To me the simple version is that everyone feels sad when bad things happen to them. For example moving to a new country and getting teased every day as a 12 year old while having no friends. That is a shitty feeling.
Clinical depression is when you feel the same symptoms of depression even when things are going well in your life otherwise. For example you are a fairly well paid goalkeeping coach who gets to travel the world, work with top teams, and get along with your colleagues and you still kill yourself.
I don’t expect Ochoa to understand just yet but he appears to be in Category 1, like the vast majority of us. Category 1 is far less serious and is probably universal. Who enjoys getting picked on?
I am pretty much guessing on my interpretation of Category 2 though
Posted on 8/18/21 at 10:47 am to Keys Open Doors
quote:There it is right there. That team prolly had kids from all backgrounds but the only ones he got along with was the Mex-Americans. He's the prejudiced one but claims the US team was.
He didn’t hit it off with most of the players but became friends with the fellow Mexican American youth players.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 12:08 pm to Broski
Chicanos are the ones throwing bottles and trash at our players in our own country, so I don’t really give a frick about any of this.
Reality is he’s just not that good and we have multiple better options. He can say whatever he wants but his opinion is irrelevant now.
Reality is he’s just not that good and we have multiple better options. He can say whatever he wants but his opinion is irrelevant now.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 1:31 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
He's the prejudiced one
I wouldn't put it that way.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 1:36 pm to Broski
quote:
The reason in reality is that Mexico is WIDE arse OPEN at GK after Memo Ochoa while we have Steffen and Horvath who are still in their 20's
Yup. Also don't forget Matt Turner who is 27
Posted on 8/18/21 at 1:50 pm to Broski
I would agree, if this was 10-20 years ago.
But this next generation of Mexican Americans, want to play for Team USA, even the ones with talent, which wasn't the dealio when their parents were growing up.
Were dealing with that here in St.louis with Bosnian's, the 20ish kids, don't feel the loyalty to this country, as their kids will. They greatly appreciate living here, but they are Bosnian living in America, where their kids will relate to being Bosnian Americans.
But this next generation of Mexican Americans, want to play for Team USA, even the ones with talent, which wasn't the dealio when their parents were growing up.
Were dealing with that here in St.louis with Bosnian's, the 20ish kids, don't feel the loyalty to this country, as their kids will. They greatly appreciate living here, but they are Bosnian living in America, where their kids will relate to being Bosnian Americans.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 2:19 pm to cwil177
quote:
(I feel the same about Efrain Alvarez tbh).
There’s no doubt Jona and Chicharito got in Efrain’s ear and helped guide him to Mexico. And I can see completely how his comfort with fellow people of Mexican Lineage would have him end up there. I don’t think he had an attitude issue as much as he’s extremely skilled on the ball to the point Zlatan is saying he’s going to be a superstar, but he’s a below average athlete. He hasn’t completed a 90 min game for the Galaxy this year. He completed 1 in 2020 and 2 in 2019.
18 year old not completing games in MLS, 9/13 starts isn’t bad, but he played at most 79 mins in his starts. Our MNT isn’t banging down the door for that player.
Meanwhile he has 0 starts in 4 caps for Mexico.
I think his impression of his stature doesn’t match reality.
Posted on 8/18/21 at 2:32 pm to AZBayouBengal07
quote:
Meanwhile he has 0 starts in 4 caps for Mexico.
He joined Mexico like 3 months ago.
Efrain and Ochoa are good young players now, and have a chance to be great if their development continues. The good news from a USMNT perspective, is that we are deep on the wing and at GK, so it's not a big loss, but you'd still like to have as much young talent as possible because you never know how career trajectories go.
My OP wasn't about saying "good riddance" to Ochoa assuming he's going to suck now that he chose Mexico, it's more about the narrative he's creating in choosing Mexico that doesn't sit well with me.
This post was edited on 8/18/21 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 8/18/21 at 2:33 pm to Broski
Santino Quaranta GOAT
Posted on 8/18/21 at 2:41 pm to AZBayouBengal07
quote:
There’s no doubt Jona and Chicharito got in Efrain’s ear and helped guide him to Mexico
He had been with Mexico for several years. I don't think he needed to be guided by dos Santos or Chicharito.
quote:
but he’s a below average athlete. He hasn’t completed a 90 min game for the Galaxy this year. He completed 1 in 2020 and 2 in 2019.
18 year old not completing games in MLS, 9/13 starts isn’t bad, but he played at most 79 mins in his starts
I think he only recently started taking things like conditioning seriously, but with teams having 5 available subs these days, fewer players are going the full 90'. And LA has some good, experienced players that can come on late to help close out games (like Kljestan).
quote:
Meanwhile he has 0 starts in 4 caps for Mexico.
He's still an 18 year old trying to break into a good, experienced Mexico team.
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