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Started By
Message
Is modern golf too enamored with length off the tee?
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:28 am
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:28 am
I know that being long off the tee has its benefits but I felt like the final round yesterday had so many players beating the ball from rough to rough or rough to sandtrap because their tee shots missed the fairway.
What good does it do you to carry it 325 yds into deep rough vs a guy who carries it 280 and rolls it out to 300 in the fairway?
Much like Michael Jordan's teams would kill modern teams because today's NBA game has gotten away from the fundamentals of basketball in favor of a more "streetball" style I feel like a prime Ben hogan or a prime Jack Nicklaus (if they had modern equipment) would have mopped up the competition yesterday with better course management.
DeChambeau and others hurt themselves because they couldn't find a fairway.
It just seems like length over accuracy isn't a long term winning strategy when the rough is deep.
Thoughts on yesterday's final round?
What good does it do you to carry it 325 yds into deep rough vs a guy who carries it 280 and rolls it out to 300 in the fairway?
Much like Michael Jordan's teams would kill modern teams because today's NBA game has gotten away from the fundamentals of basketball in favor of a more "streetball" style I feel like a prime Ben hogan or a prime Jack Nicklaus (if they had modern equipment) would have mopped up the competition yesterday with better course management.
DeChambeau and others hurt themselves because they couldn't find a fairway.
It just seems like length over accuracy isn't a long term winning strategy when the rough is deep.
Thoughts on yesterday's final round?
13
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:36 am to SuperFanDan
If anyone watched the US Open and paid attention they have to say it always come down to putting. It's an old saying but still holds true today. Drive for show, putt for dough.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:38 am to SuperFanDan
quote:
What good does it do you to carry it 325 yds into deep rough vs a guy who carries it 280 and rolls it out to 300 in the fairway?
About a half a shot a round.
quote:
Much like Michael Jordan's teams would kill modern teams because today's NBA game has gotten away from the fundamentals of basketball in favor of a more "streetball" style
Anyone that knows basketball outside of Charles barkley laughs at this take
quote:
If anyone watched the US Open and paid attention they have to say it always come down to putting. It's an old saying but still holds true today. Drive for show, putt for dough.
Idiotic take. It comes down to the best putter that week of the best drivers. How many short accurate hitters when ever? The guys in contention this week are all bombers or much loner than average.
Out of the top 10, only Morikowa is not a long hitter and he's maybe the best iron player in the world.
When Brendan Todd and Chez Reavie start dominating the tour with driving accuracy, let me know.
This post was edited on 6/21/21 at 8:44 am
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:38 am to SuperFanDan
The US Open presents a unique challenge though. That course is specifically designed to frick you at every turn.
Chicks dig the long ball. I'd actually expect that these guys think every shot is going to go where they want it to. When it doesn't, they try to adjust just like you and me.
Indeed
quote:
What good does it do you to carry it 325 yds into deep rough vs a guy who carries it 280 and rolls it out to 300 in the fairway?
Chicks dig the long ball. I'd actually expect that these guys think every shot is going to go where they want it to. When it doesn't, they try to adjust just like you and me.
quote:
It just seems like length over accuracy isn't a long term winning strategy when the rough is deep.
Indeed
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:39 am to SuperFanDan
They are enamored with distance b/c that is the primary driver (pun intended) of success
Data shows you will score better being 80 yards from hole in the rough than 140 yards in the fairway.
Brendon Todd hits an absurd 75% of the fairways and is near the bottom of strokes gained off the tee.
Data shows you will score better being 80 yards from hole in the rough than 140 yards in the fairway.
Brendon Todd hits an absurd 75% of the fairways and is near the bottom of strokes gained off the tee.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:47 am to Johnnie10lb
quote:
Drive for show, putt for dough.
Here's the finish of the top 5 strokes gained putting from this weekend:
T7
T40
T46
2
T57
Here's the finish of the 5 best drivers from the week:
T7
T4
T50
T15
1
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:47 am to Spelt it rong
quote:
I'd actually expect that these guys think every shot is going to go where they want it to. When it doesn't, they try to adjust just like you and me.
Did you listen to any of their interviews? They explicitly said they were just going to hit it as far as they could and hope for good lies if they ended up in the rough.
You aren't making birdies on golf courses as firm as the US Open makes them with 6 irons from the fairway. You probably still aren't making birdie with a wedge out of the rough, but you can get it on the green, the same as the 6 iron from the fairway. Only chance to make birdie is with a short club so you at least don't eliminate that before ever hitting a shot by choosing to lay back.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:54 am to SuperFanDan
The modern pro golfer hits just as good out of the rough and sand as the fairway. These aren’t beer belly old men playing the game anymore.
Also, NBA players are more skilled and shoot better than players in the ‘Jordan’ era. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact backed up by stats. Just because you grew up in that era doesn’t make it better...just different.
Sounds like you’re just mad that analytics, science, matchup evaluation, and talent have won out over time.
Also, NBA players are more skilled and shoot better than players in the ‘Jordan’ era. That’s not an opinion, that’s a fact backed up by stats. Just because you grew up in that era doesn’t make it better...just different.
Sounds like you’re just mad that analytics, science, matchup evaluation, and talent have won out over time.
This post was edited on 6/21/21 at 4:59 pm
Posted on 6/21/21 at 8:58 am to SuperFanDan
I'll reply with a quote that supplements this conversation.
"I believe you have to hit the ball hard. If you can come off the ground swinging at it, and your head has remained perfectly still, then you're not swinging too hard.
"Distance is everything in modern golf."
-- Arnold Palmer in ... 1962.
"I believe you have to hit the ball hard. If you can come off the ground swinging at it, and your head has remained perfectly still, then you're not swinging too hard.
"Distance is everything in modern golf."
-- Arnold Palmer in ... 1962.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:11 am to BabyTac
quote:
Sounds like you’re just mad that analytics, science, matchup evaluation, and talent have won out over time
I'm not mad at all...that's such an odd take from my post.
I'm a casual observer and fan of golf and was just asking a question. Clearly most people don't agree with me and have given some good reasons (backed with examples) as to why my take is wrong. I'm okay with that and have learned something from this thread which is what I was hoping to do. Not mad at all.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:16 am to SuperFanDan
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:16 am to SuperFanDan
It's a dispersion deal. Pros trying to throttle back and hit it 280 will hit like 1 more fairway a round than they will swinging out of their shoes, just bc the fairways are so small. The increase they see from that one extra fairway a round is over shadowed by the increases they get on the other holes by being closer to the hole, even if that is in the rough.
If you haven't watched golf in the last few years, it looks really odd. But watch Bryson at Winged Foot last year and you'll see the beginnings of money all, data analytics, Sabermetrics, and stats in golf.
If you haven't watched golf in the last few years, it looks really odd. But watch Bryson at Winged Foot last year and you'll see the beginnings of money all, data analytics, Sabermetrics, and stats in golf.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:31 am to SuperFanDan
It seems like, in this particular tournament, there was usually a bail-out side of the fairway. Sometimes, Bryson wasn’t even aiming for the fairway, just away from the big trouble. I’d like to have seen what they did if there was big trouble on both sides.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:33 am to The Johnny Lawrence
You make some good points. Like I said in an earlier post I just casually watch and haven't dug into the metrics and stats behind these guys crushing the ball 330 to 340yds in the general direction of the green.
Clearly that's the way to go when the rough isn't too thick. As I watched DeChambeau implode on the back 9 I just was wondering what could have been for him if he didn't swing out of his shoes for the final holes of the tournament.
Clearly that's the way to go when the rough isn't too thick. As I watched DeChambeau implode on the back 9 I just was wondering what could have been for him if he didn't swing out of his shoes for the final holes of the tournament.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:34 am to SuperFanDan
quote:
As I watched DeChambeau implode on the back 9 I just was wondering what could have been for him if he didn't swing out of his shoes for the final holes of the tournament.
1 less US Open and a shitload less money
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:38 am to SuperFanDan
Yea. It's really crazy to think about the championship that used to be won by the straightens hitters who avoided trouble is now being won by bombers.
It's all about percentages. If you dig deep into strokes gained and Mark Brody, you realize that coming out of your shoes is the best way to be good at golf, assuming you keep it within the corridors.
It really is changing the game and creating problems. With the new equipment, it's very forgiving, which allows you to come out of your shoes. The ball flies straighter. In a few years, once the poofers get off the tour, it will all be bomb and gouge and the average tour driving distance will be like 340.
It's all about percentages. If you dig deep into strokes gained and Mark Brody, you realize that coming out of your shoes is the best way to be good at golf, assuming you keep it within the corridors.
It really is changing the game and creating problems. With the new equipment, it's very forgiving, which allows you to come out of your shoes. The ball flies straighter. In a few years, once the poofers get off the tour, it will all be bomb and gouge and the average tour driving distance will be like 340.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 9:39 am to SuperFanDan
It's a bit of an odd take considering five of the most powerful players in the sport have won the last six US Opens.
When the gap between the most accurate drivers on tour and the least accurate drivers on tour is only 1 - 2 fairways per round, then the relative value of accuracy at that level is diminished. On the other hand, the 30 - 40 (or longer) yard difference between the shortest and the longest guys on tour becomes that much more important.
To your point Hogan and especially Nicklaus were some of the longest players in their day. It's much easier to win on game management when you're hitting 8 iron into greens where your competitors are mostly hitting 5 and 6 irons.
When the gap between the most accurate drivers on tour and the least accurate drivers on tour is only 1 - 2 fairways per round, then the relative value of accuracy at that level is diminished. On the other hand, the 30 - 40 (or longer) yard difference between the shortest and the longest guys on tour becomes that much more important.
To your point Hogan and especially Nicklaus were some of the longest players in their day. It's much easier to win on game management when you're hitting 8 iron into greens where your competitors are mostly hitting 5 and 6 irons.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 10:04 am to SuperFanDan
I think you had a valid question at the start, but your points arguing it kind of missed the mark. I think everyday golfers put too much premium on length off the tee. A lot of my friends seem to upgrade their driver once every year or two, while still playing with the same putter they've struggled with for years.
Professionals are professionals because they've learned how to mitigate their mistakes when they miss the fairway. Either with incredible shots from the rough, or just taking their medicine and moving on to the next hole. Further, most tournament winners absolutely destroy the par 5's every week. That's harder to do without the length off the tee.
Professionals are professionals because they've learned how to mitigate their mistakes when they miss the fairway. Either with incredible shots from the rough, or just taking their medicine and moving on to the next hole. Further, most tournament winners absolutely destroy the par 5's every week. That's harder to do without the length off the tee.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 10:48 am to SuperFanDan
quote:
Much like Michael Jordan's teams would kill modern teams because today's NBA game has gotten away from the fundamentals of basketball
This isn't even close to true. Similar to modern golf analytics, if the 90's Bulls ignore the stats behind the 3 ball then they get run off the court by teams today. If a modern NBA team shoots 36.7% from 3 (league average in 2021), then the Bulls "fundamentals" don't matter. They would have to shoot 55% on their 2 point attempts to keep up - they shot 45.1% as a team in 96-97.
The same holds true for distance in modern golf. Sure, 325 in the deep rough might be more difficult than 300 in the fairway, but will that scenario play out every time? Even the most accurate drivers hit ~75% of fairways. They're still missing 3-4 fairways a round. A 280 carry into deep rough doesn't roll out to 300, so 3-4 times a round they are at least 2 clubs longer with no advantage in the lie.
Bryson's adventure on 13 wasn't really even that bad of a drive. He tried to lay up from the rough and missed the fairway. Then on his 3rd shot hit into a bunker, then hit one 30 yards past the green. He had missed 21 fairways in the first 3 rounds (50%) and still managed to be leading the field before the implosion on the back 9.
Posted on 6/21/21 at 11:07 am to Mingo Was His NameO
quote:
Did you listen to any of their interviews?
No. I said "I'd actually expect" meaning I wasn't sure.
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