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Clarification about South African Land Distribution

Posted on 8/24/18 at 6:46 pm
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 6:46 pm
I'm going to post a passage from someone who lives in South Africa (yes he's white)

Cant fit the whole conversation, so I'll leave a link.

quote:

To understand the current situation in South Africa, you need to understand first what happened in the past. The really short, simplified version is that white people have clashed with black people over land ever since white settlers arrived in South Africa.
During the Apartheid years, the white minority government forcibly removed and displaced many black people, took their land and forced them into small, semi-independent “homelands”, dotted all over the country:





quote:

can see that the homelands (coloured areas of the map) form only a small part of the country. Yet the majority of black people lived there. True, the homelands were largely based on where these tribes already lived, but by the time Apartheid ended, millions of people had been confined to those areas.
In the cities, the same segregation happened. Residential areas were proclaimed as whites only suburbs, while black people were forcibly removed to “locations” outside the city, known as townships. These remain to this day the poorest areas of each city, with dense housing and shacks, minimal infrastructure and service delivery.

After white minority rule ended in 1994, the ANC government embarked on a long and difficult journey to restore these inequalities and right the injustices of the past. Massive housing projects were rolled out, to try and get black people out of shacks and informal settlements, and into small, government-built houses known as RDP houses (Reconstruction and Development Plan housing). These houses look like this:

?

Meanwhile, a land claims court was set up to deal with the thorny issue of land restitution. People who were forcibly moved off their land during the Apartheid years could submit a land claim, which the government would then settle either by buying the land back from the current owner and giving that land to the claimants, or by means of financial compensation if the land owner was not willing to sell, or the claimants wanted cash compensation rather than land.
This land reform process was initially based on a Willing Seller, Willing Buyer principle. It failed miserably. In part because most claimants wanted cash, not land. Which means communities that have already been compensated through the land claims process, still have no land. And the average community member also did not benefit from the money paid to their tribal chiefs or family leaders or community trust.

Another reason it failed is because white farmers who reluctantly sold to the government as part of the land claims process, inflated their asking prices to ridiculous levels, far beyond the market value of the land. And when they left, they often sold all their stock and equipment, leaving the new black land owners with nothing, having to start farming from scratch, with no access to capital and limited or no commercial farming experience. It was destined to fail and left behind a bunch of struggling black farmers (now with land but still living in poverty) and a small number of obscenely rich white farmers, who walked away with millions.

In some cases, those same white farmers then approached the new black farm owners a few years later, offered them a fraction of the price they were paid for their farm by government, and got their farm back cheaply.

This was an expensive and painful exercise for the government, and while there were some notable exceptions, it became quite clear that many white farmers abused even the land reform process to their own advantage. They either refused to sell, or asked obscene amounts of money for their farms.

There are a few success stories, and a few white farmers were willing to assist the new owners to help make a success of farming, but the majority of commercial farms handed over to black claimants fell into disrepair and became unproductive. The land reform process failed to address the injustices of the past and did not make a meaningful dent in the inequality of land ownership.

The result is that the majority of productive, commercial farmland is still in the hands of the white minority. And the majority of black people are still without land and housing. Land invasions and illegal shack building is common on vacant land around big cities, due to the huge need for land and housing. Millions of the poorest black South Africans still live like this:

?

If you have read this far, you can now begin to understand what is behind the government’s move to take a more radical approach to land reform. Black people have been in power, politically, since 1994, but they do not feel in power economically. The white minority (8% of the population) still own most of the economic wealth and most of the private land in South Africa. This, dear questioner, is why white landowners in South Africa are being “targeted by their own government”.

The land hunger is such a burning issue that many argue (including President Ramaphosa) that the stability of the country is at risk if we do not speed up land reform (through land expropriation without compensation). We do not want to see haphazard, illegal, violent land grabs as we saw in Zimbabwe. And to avoid that we have to address the land question and make tangible progress.





Yes. He had his detractors just like I'm sure I'll get mine. And like him, I'll answer back in kind. I encourage you to read the comments section as well.

Quora: Question Regarding SA
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
133365 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 6:51 pm to
Do you honestly believe most of us are interested in reading that long diatribe on a Friday night?
This post was edited on 8/24/18 at 6:59 pm
Posted by themunch
bottom of the list
Member since Jan 2007
71165 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 6:56 pm to
This, dear questioner, is why white landowners in South Africa are being killed by their own government”.
Posted by Scoop
RIP Scoop
Member since Sep 2005
44583 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:06 pm to
quote:

If you have read this far, you can now begin to understand what is behind the government’s move to take a more radical approach to land reform. Black people have been in power, politically, since 1994, but they do not feel in power economically. The white minority (8% of the population) still own most of the economic wealth and most of the private land in South Africa. This, dear questioner, is why white landowners in South Africa are being “targeted by their own government”.


So.......after apartheid ended, the black population of SA has had 24 years to get their shite together and haven’t so the government is going to force out the productive whites and hand over their land to the blacks that have proven they can’t get their shite together over the last quarter century.

I’m sure this is gonna work out fantastically. It will be Wakanda in 5 years.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
124657 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:10 pm to
Lol at that bullshite.

“When they sold the land, they didn’t give them the farm equipment for free and didn’t train them for free on how to grow food. It was sooo unfair”

That was written by a moron.
Posted by KyleOrtonsMustache
Krystal Baller
Member since Jan 2008
5148 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:15 pm to
Interesting read. It sounds like the SA government was inept in the original land buy back program and allowed farmers to manipulate pricing.
I’ve got no problem with the farmers who sold back selling their equipment and stock. It was there’s to do as they wished. If the government was smart they would’ve offered to buy that as well. How did they think just giving someone with no experience and equipment was going to go?

Really it seems as if the South African government isn’t that great at long range thinking in this matter. There current policy could possibly create an even bigger problem long term.

That’s not to say that righting wrongs of the past is a bad thing. But crippling your country economically and agriculturally just to make things “right” is a piss-poor job of governing. Just saying “Hey, here’s some farmland” isn’t a formula for success on either front.
Posted by northshorebamaman
Cochise County AZ
Member since Jul 2009
37320 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:17 pm to
quote:

And when they left, they often sold all their stock and equipment, leaving the new black land owners with nothing, having to start farming from scratch, with no access to capital and limited or no commercial farming experience.

I don't know much about farming but when selling a farm is it standard to include all the equipment and farming lessons?
This post was edited on 8/24/18 at 7:18 pm
Posted by humanlement
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2014
536 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:19 pm to
Great let’s kill all the white people because the blacks can’t make it on their own. Must be has to be the white mans faukt. They can all GFThemselves
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:20 pm to
quote:

the808bass


The government should have enforced a policy that made them sell equipment along with land.

I can only see this 2 ways.

1. If there is alternate way the ANC should have handled procuring the land, give a suggestion.

2. They could have created a law and violently enforced it, but I take it you have a problem with that

You do realize that none of this would have happened if Apartheid wasn't a thing.
Posted by bencoleman
RIP 7/19
Member since Feb 2009
37887 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:23 pm to
quote:

Another reason it failed is because white farmers who reluctantly sold to the government as part of the land claims process, inflated their asking prices to ridiculous levels, far beyond the market value of the land. And when they left, they often sold all their stock and equipment, leaving the new black land owners with nothing, having to start farming from scratch, with no access to capital and limited or no commercial farming experience. It was destined to fail and left behind a bunch of struggling black farmers (now with land but still living in poverty) and a small number of obscenely rich white farmers, who walked away with millions.

In some cases, those same white farmers then approached the new black farm owners a few years later, offered them a fraction of the price they were paid for their farm by government, and got their farm back cheaply



So the land has already been taken away from the whites once and given to blacks.

Do you honestly expect the farmers not to sell their equipment and livestock?

The blacks were given a chance and failed so the whites bought their farms back.

How you can sit there and blame the white farmers is beyond me. I have no doubt that you'll blame the coming famine on whites too.
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
82743 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:23 pm to
So in other words, whites are having their lands confiscated and blacks aren’t able to farm the lands they already have.

Thanks for clarifying.
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:23 pm to
quote:



Great let’s kill all the white people because the blacks can’t make it on their own. Must be has to be the white mans faukt. They can all GFThemselves





As someone who tries to be more or less grounded in politics, this is undeniably the fault of white settlers.

Seriously, the land program could have worked if they were more diplomatic. The only thing they should have done differently was create a 10 year program to hire farmers to learn how to farm appropriately.
Posted by CleverUserName
Member since Oct 2016
15943 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:24 pm to
So did he kill the white whale or not? Not reading that whole book. Frick that.
Posted by northshorebamaman
Cochise County AZ
Member since Jul 2009
37320 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:29 pm to
quote:

The only thing they should have done differently was create a 10 year program to hire farmers to learn how to farm appropriately.

But weren't most of the people who were actually physically farming the land black? That seems like a readily available knowledge base.
Posted by bencoleman
RIP 7/19
Member since Feb 2009
37887 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:35 pm to
Are you willing to walk away from everything that you own or have ever worked for?
Posted by volod
Leesville, LA
Member since Jun 2014
5392 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:35 pm to
quote:

their farms back. 

How you can sit there and blame the white farmers is beyond me. I have no doubt that you'll blame the coming famine on whites too.





Well what else could the ANC do. And the only reason they failed to farm was do not having the experience or the credit to take out a loan.

Seriously. I didnt expect any less. Not a single actual solution as to "what they could have done better" or "if I was in charge I'd fix the government this way" to the problem just blame shifting.

You think by just handing over a government that you automatically fix everything. It never works like that.

And did you ever think about the fact that government, despite everything, has not resorted to concentrate camps or gulags.
(Yes there is ignored Violence, I'm just stating it hasn't reached the worst level)


I don't want Violence. And I had a shred of hope that people will understand that the situation is nuanced and their is no easy fix to something like Apartheid.

Just like there was no easy fix to a country whose was founded on the very concept of freedom yet struggled with slavery and Civil Rights.
Posted by habanos
Alabama
Member since Feb 2014
1937 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:36 pm to
Do you really think we are going to read all that?

They are going to kill all the whites in SA eventually. It don't matter if your a pinko or not.
Posted by Scoop
RIP Scoop
Member since Sep 2005
44583 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:38 pm to
Why is it only certain people that can’t bounce back from exploitation or even slavery even after hundreds of years?
Posted by philter
Member since Dec 2004
8967 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:39 pm to
What is left out of the story is the initial dutch descended farmers in SA populated land that was unoccupied. They were there nearly 200 years before the British took over - and they fought the Brits. As the moved inland from 1600s to 1800s they encountered tribes, and some restitution is likely due there - but the Boers that settled uninhabited land are the main farmers today. Since the land was uninhabited and they didn't steal it - who is owed restitution?

The majority of the population of SA don't even realize this since they've been lead to believe otherwise so long (thank you UK). Whether restitution is deserved or not, no one deserves to be murdered, past or present.
Posted by GenghisKhan
Gulf Coast
Member since Aug 2016
960 posts
Posted on 8/24/18 at 7:40 pm to
No, not really, equipment can be negotiated, or sold separate to the land.
Lessons????
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