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Started By
Message
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:46 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
You have no idea who any of this works.
I'm not the one claiming tax savings offset tariffs
Nor are you the one claiming income taxes are a part of operating margins.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:47 am to dewster
quote:
and are at an artificial competitive disadvantage because of tariffs placed on American goods.
Yet we're at an advantage due to cheap imports that make up components we export.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:48 am to dewster
quote:
GDP growth is 4% today while CapEx is up. Unemployment is down and manufacturing activity is up.
Your reading comprehension sucks. I said "until" which means that the action hasn't occurred.
The tariffs just started. Already the automakers are bitching about it, as is whirlpool. And farmers.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:51 am to brian_wilson
quote:
The tariffs just started. Already the automakers are bitching about it, as is whirlpool. And farmers.
German Automakers are bitching about it too and are demanding that the EU eliminate tarriffs to facilitate a free trade agreement with the US.
And it’s hilarious that the tarriffs have been around long enough for the critics to completely dismiss them as ineffective, but not long enough for the tarriffs to actually produce the negative impact that you know will occur.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:54 am to dewster
I am willing to concede the tariffs might work, although I do not believe they will.
I am absolutely sure that they will cause economic pain though, both for producers and consumers.
I am absolutely sure that they will cause economic pain though, both for producers and consumers.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:57 am to brian_wilson
quote:
I am absolutely sure that they will cause economic pain though, both for producers and consumers.
More pain for producers that need access to the largest, wealthiest consumer market in the world.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:57 am to CivilTiger83
Tariffs are an attempt to tax your way to prosperity. If Trump imposes a tariff on a company overseas, that company isn't going to eat the cost, they're going to pass that tariff back onto the consumers. So before, you could buy a $30 t-shirt made in America or a $15 t-shirt made in China, and now you have to spend $30.
So we've already effectively raised your cost of living. That's indisputable. The question is how many jobs that saves. Fox News Research sent out a tweet over the weekend citing the Center for Automotive Research saying 25% tariffs on foreign autos would cost 715,000 jobs, not create jobs. That's in part because there are auto factories in the South that rely on importing cheaper parts from Mexico, which frees up money to save jobs. They may also find that increased automation is less expensive then hiring new employees, and it's been found by Ball State that 85% of manufacturing jobs were lost to automation. You'll also have companies that need to buy cars which could have less money to hire employees, and dealerships who fire salesmen who suddenly can't sell as many cars. And so on.
The reality is you may save a few jobs at the margins, but you're not creating any and potentially killing them through a ripple effect. Now Trump's strategy is allegedly using tariffs as a short-term tool to force the EU and China to the negotiating table over trade. If that's his plan, then maybe it's worth the short-term pain to get better trade deals, but I'm skeptical that's his end-game given he was praising tariffs on the campaign trail. Imposing tariffs over the long-term is left-wing economics, pure and simple, and it doesn't work.
So we've already effectively raised your cost of living. That's indisputable. The question is how many jobs that saves. Fox News Research sent out a tweet over the weekend citing the Center for Automotive Research saying 25% tariffs on foreign autos would cost 715,000 jobs, not create jobs. That's in part because there are auto factories in the South that rely on importing cheaper parts from Mexico, which frees up money to save jobs. They may also find that increased automation is less expensive then hiring new employees, and it's been found by Ball State that 85% of manufacturing jobs were lost to automation. You'll also have companies that need to buy cars which could have less money to hire employees, and dealerships who fire salesmen who suddenly can't sell as many cars. And so on.
The reality is you may save a few jobs at the margins, but you're not creating any and potentially killing them through a ripple effect. Now Trump's strategy is allegedly using tariffs as a short-term tool to force the EU and China to the negotiating table over trade. If that's his plan, then maybe it's worth the short-term pain to get better trade deals, but I'm skeptical that's his end-game given he was praising tariffs on the campaign trail. Imposing tariffs over the long-term is left-wing economics, pure and simple, and it doesn't work.
This post was edited on 7/25/18 at 10:03 am
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:58 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Ummm keep up the status quo:
It’s correcting itself as it is,
No, it’s absolutely not.
Thousands of companies were moving out of the US to find a country with lower tax rates and people they could pay less to produce their goods.
Our freaking GDP growth averaged 1.8% under Obama, and in spite of $5 trillion in Quantitative Easing, we still had the slowest recovery from a recession in history.
The stock market was 17,400 in Nov. 2014, and 17,900 on Nov. 7, 2016.
That’s 2 straight flat stagnant years leading up to the election.
Welfare recipients grew. The middle class shrunk. Exports and imports both increased.
Nothing was getting better. These are all recipes and signs of an impending fiscal collapse.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 9:58 am to I B Freeman
quote:
Nor are you the one claiming income taxes are a part of operating margins.
Ole Beefy is making the argument that tax savings will be used to cover tariff losses
Now, that's not going to happen. But let's say it did happen, does he think that not being able to use the tax savings to expand capacity or efficiency is a good thing?
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:00 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
making the pro-tariff callers look silly for their lack of understanding of economics.
That’s about as difficult as making flat earthers look silly for their lack of understanding of reality.
quote:
Does that make Levin a traitorous globalist, or is Trump possibly wrong on this?
Not possibly, Trump is a total moron on this
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:01 am to goofball
quote:
More pain for producers that need access to the largest, wealthiest consumer market in the world.
Sure. The goal is to cause enough pain they come to the table. Well the thing is that china's gov't is not responsive to the people's will.
Not to mention that trade negotiations usually take years to complete.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:01 am to brian_wilson
quote:
I am willing to concede the tariffs might work, although I do not believe they will.
That’s understandable and I appreciate that.
For the record, I do recognize the risk in Trump’s strategy, but I think that we don’t have much to lose by forcing some of our trace partners to the negotiating table and using our leverage to obtain better deals that benefit American producers and consumers.
I would like to hear your opinion on how we move those stubborn nations closer to real free and fair trade with the US. Nothing has really worked so far, but in fairness nothing has really been attempted to correct this by Obama or Bush.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:02 am to maine82
quote:
Imposing tariffs over the long-term is left-wing economics, pure and simple, and it doesn't work.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:04 am to RogerTheShrubber
I’m glad there are still a few sane people in here.
ITT Conservatives largely believe that other country’s higher taxes justify raising domestic taxes.... what a fricking world.
ITT Conservatives largely believe that other country’s higher taxes justify raising domestic taxes.... what a fricking world.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:05 am to brian_wilson
quote:
Well the thing is that china's gov't is not responsive to the people's will.
China needs to industrialize rapidly. They have a massive demographic problem (caused by policies that are unthinkable in the US) that is pushing their leadership to help move the economic needle for a massive portion of their population before it ages.
Them having reduced access to the American consumer market is a huge problem, and they are very well aware that they aren’t the only place to obtain cheap labor.
This is a huge “oh shite” moment for them, as a lot of our close trade partners have also placed tarriffs on Chinese goods to prevent dumping of products that otherwise would have gone to the US. Canada in particular did this recently.
This post was edited on 7/25/18 at 10:08 am
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:06 am to dewster
quote:
I would like to hear your opinion on how we move those stubborn nations closer to real free and fair trade with the US. Nothing has really worked so far, but in fairness nothing has really been attempted to correct this by Obama or Bush.
well I think you have to sit down at the table with them, and discuss it in depth. Have some sort of proposal that is realistic option to choose, with flexibility to move closer to the middle.
NAFTA discussions took like 12 years to complete. These things aren't done in a month or two.
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:09 am to dewster
quote:
China needs to industrialize rapidly.
Have you ever been to China????
Posted on 7/25/18 at 10:10 am to CivilTiger83
Mark Levin is right and Trump is so far wrong it's on the cusp of setting a record for errancy. If the economy tanks you can fully blame The Magnificent One.
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