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re: In God We Trust now under attack..
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:57 pm to Revelator
Posted on 5/7/18 at 2:57 pm to Revelator
quote:
... there is a trend towards taking references of God out of the public arena and in government places, but Christianity is very personal, and striking the phrase," In God We Trust" from our money or anywhere else should do nothing to affect your relationship with him.
While you are correct that nothing should affect your relationship with Jesus, it's important to realize that the war against Christianity is not solely restricted to the public sphere.
1
Posted on 5/7/18 at 3:00 pm to Boatshoes
quote:
While you are correct that nothing should affect your relationship with Jesus, it's important to realize that the war against Christianity is not solely restricted to the public sphere.
But everyone is judged individually, so in end, thats what matters.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 3:06 pm to Azkiger
"Divine Providence" is the literal opposite of a non-intervening creator.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 3:46 pm to rumproast
Not a big deal. Was a recent addition anyway.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 4:20 pm to GRTiger
quote:
"Divine Providence" is the literal opposite of a non-intervening creator.
So a deist wouldn't prescribe to that, then.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 5:19 pm to Azkiger
It's used in the DoI, along with the idea that the Supreme Judge would determine the rectitude of their (continental congress) intentions. In other words, the founders were motivated/moved by God's will and judgment in the founding of America. Or at least that's what they tell us in the DoI.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 6:20 pm to GRTiger
quote:
In other words, the founders were motivated/moved by God's will and judgment in the founding of America.
I agree with that, most of our founders were Christian and of course that colored their perceptions of what was occurring in America both pre and post American Revolution.
You are correct though, divine providence and a Supreme Judge aren't inline with a deist's worldview. It is interesting how these ideas are included in the Declaration of Independence and their presence might, at least partially, be explained by the audience they were speaking to (Church of England).
Still, this language seemed to immediately disappear with regards to any official American documentation after. Made worse by the fact that statements that seem to be directly counter to the idea that America was founded in the Christian religion... I'd be interesting to read various Founding Fathers personal writings in order to see if there was a change of mindset throughout the war?
It's one thing to get together, pissed off, and have a Revolution. Once its won, and you actually have to build a government pretty much from scratch, I can see there being great debates on the details.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 6:22 pm to BaylorTiger
quote:
Kind of like a lot of these civil war statues not being errrected until the 50’s during the height of the civil rights movement....
Many of those statues were erected in the 1880's through the 1920's. The majority were not erected in the 50's.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 6:32 pm to Muthsera
Lol...bull fricking shite. They have been waging a war against Christianity for a very long time and part of that war is to spread false propaganda against our founding fathers. Our nation was most certainly built on Christian principles and ideals. However, they tolerated other religions because America was for those who want to escape religious persecution.
The more they get their greasy filthy hands into our society, the worse it becomes.
Wake up people!
The more they get their greasy filthy hands into our society, the worse it becomes.
Wake up people!
Posted on 5/7/18 at 6:43 pm to TexasTiger80
quote:
Our nation was most certainly built on Christian principles and ideals.
While I certainly agree that Christianity is not given a fair shake in today's America, that's just not true.
quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Muslims; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
- 1790's US Senate, unanimously approved.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 6:47 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Still, this language seemed to immediately disappear with regards to any official American documentation after.
Very intentionally, as has been agreed to in the thread.
I believe, like any man, their beliefs molded their worldview which guided their founding of our nation. I also believe they were very serious about the separation of church and state, so after laying the foundation for their motivations, they focused solely on the secular implementation of a constitution, government, etc.
I don't think America was founded in the name of Christianity. I do believe Christianity is one of few religions that could have molded their worldview such that they had enough foresight and humility to ensure they didn't let their beliefs hinder their intention for a truly free populace.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 6:49 pm to GRTiger
quote:
I do believe Christianity is one of few religions that could have molded their worldview such that they had enough foresight and humility to ensure they didn't let their beliefs hinder their intention for a truly free populace.
I agree, especially considering the time in history in which this took place.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 7:10 pm to GRTiger
quote:
Divine Providence" is the literal opposite of a non-intervening creator.
Fun fact, that clause - "with firm reliance on Divine Providence" - was added by some member of the SSC after its submission by Jefferson. In fact, Jefferson went out of his way to point out that he felt is abused his work.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 7:17 pm to rumproast
quote:
Figured this was just a matter of time. fricking ridiculous. These a-holes are really trying to destroy the entire foundation of our country
Is today “religious faux outrage” day? I hardly see this as the problem when the sitting US President is a compulsive liar and adulterer with an extra marital affair slush fund.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 8:36 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Fun fact, that clause - "with firm reliance on Divine Providence" - was added by some member of the SSC after its submission by Jefferson. In fact, Jefferson went out of his way to point out that he felt is abused his work.
Very interesting, I can only imagine how much debate was had between our founding fathers when it came to what actually made it to print. These were highly intelligent people, and every word mattered.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 8:39 pm to WillieNelsonsDoobie
quote:
I hardly see this as the problem when the sitting US President is a sinner.
FIFY.
I'm an atheist btw, but anyone who has ascended to that office in the last few decades is as bad as Trump is. The difference is that progressives are losing their minds over Trump all because he doesn't even try to be PC. At least previous Republicans played by the rules, they wouldn't say things that the progressives bitched was racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Trump? Doesn't care. And they're melting because not only does Trump not play by their rules, they're melting because America itself seems to be getting tired of their shite too.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 8:42 pm to Antonio Moss
Interesting. I wonder what the DoI would look like if it was put solely in Jefferson's hands.
He has spoken of God's guidance and providence in other cases, including most notably his second inaugural address.
TJ seemed to tussle with his beliefs, or at least displayed a little political double speak depending on the situation and his audience.
He has spoken of God's guidance and providence in other cases, including most notably his second inaugural address.
TJ seemed to tussle with his beliefs, or at least displayed a little political double speak depending on the situation and his audience.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 8:53 pm to Azkiger
That treaty was with the Muslims in North Africa and was merely stating that we were not like the European Christian nations that hated Muslims and wanted to start a war with Muslims. It also means that we are not a "Christian" nation..which we aren't. But our laws and constitution were founded by Christian men and no doubt their Christian beliefs influenced the laws of this nation.
And I am all for freedom of religion. If you want to worship a tree in your back yard, go for it. This country was also founded on freedom of religion.
And I am all for freedom of religion. If you want to worship a tree in your back yard, go for it. This country was also founded on freedom of religion.
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 9:00 pm
Posted on 5/7/18 at 8:55 pm to rumproast
Creator God myth defense by hypnotized faithful.
Mkeh.
PS there is no such thing as a God "out there". There can't be because there is only the one. Singular Indivisible divine conscious mystery. No things at all, not even crusader rabbit.
Mkeh.
PS there is no such thing as a God "out there". There can't be because there is only the one. Singular Indivisible divine conscious mystery. No things at all, not even crusader rabbit.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 8:56 pm to CelticDog
And you are free to believe that also, athiest dog...in this great country of ours.
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 8:57 pm
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