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re: EBC Book #1 - Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt

Posted on 6/19/17 at 6:27 pm to
Posted by Fatal Conceit
Ramblin down that dusty ole road
Member since Jun 2017
594 posts
Posted on 6/19/17 at 6:27 pm to
Wonderful news! Von Mises afterwards? No Hayek without Mises...
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/19/17 at 8:50 pm to
Sure. Sounds logical to me, although we need to get some Marx in in between.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/22/17 at 7:03 pm to
A very salient point is made in the fourth section of Ch. 14 on "Saving the X Industry."

quote:

Why should [a dying industry] be kept alive [artificially]? The idea that an expanding economy implies that ALL industries must be simultaneously expanding is a profound error. In order that new industries may grow fast enough, it is necessary that some old industries be allowed to shrink or die. They must do this in order to release the necessary capital and labor for the new industries. If we had tried to keep the horse-and-buggy trade artificially alive we [would] have slowed down the growth of the automobile industry and all the trades dependent on it. We [would] have lowered the production of wealth and retarded economic and scientific progress.


I think his point here is that the government should not pick winners and losers but rather let market forces work such that capital is allocated to those industries that produce the greatest return on investment. Just as conservatives should be against subsidizing new industries at the expense of old industries, we should also be against subsidizing old industries at the expense of new industries. I feel the latter half of that statement is sometimes missed by free market proponents.

As an aside, I'm not for or against the coal industry. I'm against subsidizing other industries to its detriment, but I'm not for propping it up if it's a dying industry. Anyone find it interesting even at the time of this book they were having discussions on "saving the coal industry?"

Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/22/17 at 8:31 pm to
Another tremendous point:

quote:

It is contended that wages can easily be lifted without lifting prices. When it becomes obvious that wages can be raised only at the expense of profits, the bureaucrats begin to argue that profits were already too high anyway and that lifting wages and holding prices will still permit a "fair profit." [As profit margins are different amongst firms,] the result of this policy is to drive the least profitable concerns out of business altogether, [and thus] discourage or stop the production of certain items. This means unemployment, a shrinkage in production and a decline in living standards.


But if those with the lowest profit margins are driven out of business, supply would go down relative to demand and prices at the surviving firms would necessarily go up in response. Net-net, the consumer is no better off and all you've accomplished is shifting profits from less efficient firms (e.g. moms and pops) to more efficient firms (e.g. the Wal-Marts that the left is supposed to hate). If the large firms are more efficient because they use less labor, you're effectively reducing the number of jobs even though you're increasing the average wage of the jobs that remain.

That is, you're robbing local Peter to pay corporate Paul and you're also robbing worker Peter (no more job) to pay worker Paul (higher wage).

I had this exact conversation with my lefty sister recently, and her response was that Wal-Mart should simply make due with lower profits. Wouldn't that make other firms more competitive? And what if those other firms are just as greedy (or greedier) than Wal-Mart used to be?
Posted by RickySauwce
BR
Member since Dec 2011
740 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 7:07 am to
Question,

Speaking of the Tariff chapter which is what I just finished. Hazlitt states that if we buy the less costly sweater at 25$ from Great Britain then they will have more US dollars to buy exports from us. What happens if they choose to use those dollars in trade with another country rather than the US. Wouldn't we be worst off in that case then if the 5$ duty was in place.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 7:30 am to
Good question. I think the implication may be that the country GB traded with would then have more USD to buy our exports with. Eventually those USD will be used by someone to buy goods from us.
Posted by RickySauwce
BR
Member since Dec 2011
740 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 7:55 am to
I know he says to ignore exchange rates and such for the example. But I guess even if GB exchanged USD to Germany and Germany to Spain eventually those dollars would be used by someone to by goods from us?
Posted by GeauxPack81
Member since Dec 2009
10483 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 8:24 am to
quote:

A very salient point is made in the fourth section of Ch. 14 on "Saving the X Industry."



Great quote. I love drinking craft beer, and this speaks to that industry so well. Its so heavily regulated so that craft breweries don't take over the market. We have to have distributors, we have to have liquor stores, we have to have bars, everyone has to get their share of the profits created by the increase in demand for craft beer... Why? Let the market dictate which of those should die and which of them should prosper. I still think they all add value and would be used by smart brewery owners.
Posted by GregYoureMyBoyBlue
Member since Apr 2011
2963 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 9:03 am to
quote:


But if those with the lowest profit margins are driven out of business, supply would go down relative to demand and prices at the surviving firms would necessarily go up in response. Net-net, the consumer is no better off and all you've accomplished is shifting profits from less efficient firms (e.g. moms and pops) to more efficient firms (e.g. the Wal-Marts that the left is supposed to hate). If the large firms are more efficient because they use less labor, you're effectively reducing the number of jobs even though you're increasing the average wage of the jobs that remain.

That is, you're robbing local Peter to pay corporate Paul and you're also robbing worker Peter (no more job) to pay worker Paul (higher wage).

I had this exact conversation with my lefty sister recently, and her response was that Wal-Mart should simply make due with lower profits. Wouldn't that make other firms more competitive? And what if those other firms are just as greedy (or greedier) than Wal-Mart used to be?



Additionally, profits accumulated by Wal-Mart would then be used to grow, build more stores, thereby increasing the need for more workers. As the demand for workers grows, in theory, the wages for said workers will increase. The biggest problem is the whole "skilled vs unskilled" labor, but even this can be solved by growth.

Case in point, I live in a fairly burgeoning city right now. Growth has been very good, and you can't go to a restaurant anymore that doesn't have a need for more waiters and waitresses. I was talking with a couple of the owners and was asking them about their concerns in the business and every single person said labor. They couldn't find enough quality labor (not skilled), but quality labor, so they are resorting to marketing higher wages, flexibility, and higher average take home (inclusive of tips). After speaking with some of the staff at my local watering hole, many were now leaving the current job to take other jobs that were offering more money and flexibility. Funny how that works huh?
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 2:57 pm to
Your point re: Wal-Mart having more profits to grow and create more jobs (even lower wage ones) is a really good angle on the topic. I wish I'd mentioned that in the discussion with my sister. Arguing Wal-Mart should just do with lower profits is a perfect example of looking only at immediate effects and the effects of a small group of people without considering the bigger picture.

The restaurant point is also good. Wages are subject to the same forces of supply and demand as any other good or service. If you price yourself out of the market, you simply won't attract the people you need and your business will fail.

Hazlitt doesn't use a lot of stats and figures to prove these points (something he disclaimed in the preface to the book), but all of this certainly seems to be very sensical.

I'm looking forward to dissecting these issues more in future readings.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 3:02 pm to
I was aware of the three-tier system but didn't know that was actually a federal thing and not just a state-by-state thing. Wikipedia suggests Washington state's system has been privatized - perhaps CA is next?
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/23/17 at 3:02 pm to
I think that's the right idea, yes.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/24/17 at 11:06 am to
Chapter 18 on minimum wage laws is also fantastic:

quote:

You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. In brief, [all you will accomplish by establishing a price floor (minimum wage) is to substitute the low wage with new unemployment.]
Posted by Willie Stroker
Member since Sep 2008
12955 posts
Posted on 6/25/17 at 9:30 am to
I happened to highlight that same quote when I came across it a couple of days ago.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/25/17 at 5:40 pm to
Another great quote, but I'm not sure yet where in the book it came from as I found it while reading a Krugman vs. Hazlitt article:

quote:

It is difficult to deny, Hazlitt wrote, “what has become in the last two centuries the most strongly established principle in economics—to wit, that if the price of any commodity or service is kept too high (i.e., above the point of equilibrium) some of that commodity or service will remain unsold. This is true of eggs, cheese, cotton, Cadillacs, or labor. When wage-rates are too high there will be unemployoment. Reducing the myriad wage-rates to their respective equilibrium points may not in itself be a sufficient step to the restoration of full employment (for there are other possible disequilibriums to be considered), but it is an absolutely necessary step. This is the elementary and inescapable truth that Keynes, with an incredible display of sophistry, irrelevance, and complicated obfuscation, tries to refute.”


LINK /
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/25/17 at 5:43 pm to
Dear God. Krugman gets gored in that article:

quote:

Krugman has even explicitly argued the “case for a higher inflation rate” on the grounds that “it’s really, really hard to cut nominal wages”, so in lieu of “wage cuts”, just have “higher inflation”, which “would lead to lower unemployment”. Krugman constantly contradicts himself, but seems totally oblivious to the implications. So it is that he can argue that Hazlitt was “totally wrong” to argue that eliminating minimum wage laws would reduce unemployment and yet at the same time it is true that reducing workers’ real wages through inflation would reduce unemployment. It’s a case of Krugman offering a heads I win, tails you lose argument.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/25/17 at 6:00 pm to
Here is Hazlitt in his own words in the fourth section of Chapter 22. I have to wonder if Krugman even read this:

quote:

What inflation really does is raise commodity prices in relation to wage rates, and so to restore business profits, and encourage a resumption of output at the points where idle resources exist. It should be immediately clear that this could be brought about more directly and honestly by a reduction in wage rates.


Since wage cuts and inflation have the same outcome, all I can conclude is that politicians prefer to cut wages via the back door as opposed to knocking on the front door and clearly stating their real (pun intended) intentions. What's funny about that is it appears from Sowell's preface we will be talking about how politics interferes with otherwise sound economic principles.
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/25/17 at 6:36 pm to
Hazlitt is killing it in Ch. 22. This is easily my favorite chapter yet. Here's another really good quote to remember for later:

quote:

Inflation, indeed, throws a veil of illusion over every economic process. It confuses and deceives almost everyone, including even those who suffer by it. We are all accustomed to measuring our income and wealth in terms of money. The mental habit is so strong that even professional economists and statisticians cannot consistently break it. It is not easy to see relationships always in terms of real goods and real welfare. Who among us does not feel richer and prouder when he is told that our national income has doubled (in terms of dollars, of course) compared with some preinflationary period? Even the clerk who used to get $25 a week and now gets $35 thinks that he must be in some way better off, though it costs him twice as much to live as it did when he was getting $25. He is of course not blind to the rise in the cost of living. But neither is he as fully aware of his real position as he would have been if his cost of living had not changed and if his money salary had been reduced to give him the same reduced purchasing power that he now has, in spite of his salary increase, because of higher prices. Inflation is the autosuggestion, the hypnotism, the anesthetic, that has dulled the pain of the operation for him. Inflation is the opium of the people.
This post was edited on 6/25/17 at 6:37 pm
Posted by RedStickBR
Member since Sep 2009
14577 posts
Posted on 6/25/17 at 7:49 pm to
Just finished the book. Really enjoyed it. I thought it had become kind of mundane about halfway through, but it won me over again towards the end and really finished with a bang with its discussion of wages and inflation. I give it four of five stars. What say the rest of you?
Posted by GeauxPack81
Member since Dec 2009
10483 posts
Posted on 6/29/17 at 9:10 am to
I'm way behind, but I am still going to finish this book. Loved this quote, it is so spot on:

quote:

The whole argument for the government entering the lending business, in fact, is that it will make loans to people who could not get them from private lenders. This is only another way of saying that the government lenders will take risks with other people’s money (the taxpayers’) that private lenders will not take with their own money.

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